Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Ken Dine]

Yes. They did really believe that and that would skew the case. I read recently that before Filomena arrived IIRC her boyfriend went into the room and looked around which could account for some of glass being moved.

Not sure about that since it was my understanding that the two boyfriends arrived at nearly the same time as the gals had arrived?

In any event, Filomena had testified that when she entered her bedroom the 1st thing she did was pick up her laptop, which was lying flat under the window with broken glass all over it, which she said fell off as she picked her laptop up, which explains any glass that she may have later noticed on her strewn clothing.

Of course, by the time the police photographer had arrived to document the scene, the photos showed no glass atop Filomena's strewn clothing, which means the cops who arrived to investigate the murder couldn't have seen any glass atop Filomena's strewn clothing, so their testimony about seeing glass atop her clothing was a blatant LIE.

 

[Numbers]

I've never heard before about any bug placed in Lumumba's bar?
The police did wire the waiting area in their police station hoping Amanda & Raffaele would say something incriminating while waiting to be interrogated. They also wired their cells.

But, of course, the police failed to record their late-night interrogations in the wee-hours of Nov 6th (ya, RIGHT!)

It's my understanding that Mignini had obtained a court order to tap their phones several days after the murder, so the police likely had already reviewed the text messages between Amanda and Lumumba days before the Nov 6th interrogation. The police were also observing them when Amanda bumped into Lumumba on Nov 5th when they stopped to chat.

Couple all that with the African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom, and CASE CLOSED!

The responsible officer testified on all the phone intercepts that were run in the case, and Lumumba's was included. There was some discussion here that his bar was also bugged. Someone with good reference skills could find the ISF posts about this...it was in an earlier continuation of the thread.

The tapping of phones began possibly as early as Nov. 2, certainly by Nov. 3, IIRC.

 

[Kauffer]

Oh, I believe him.

You believe what he told you about "M16" or you believe he worked for them? I'm guessing if he told you he worked for M sixteen that he's probably telling you porkies. Certainly what he told you about that organisation is untrue.

 

[Grinder]

Agree, but that was not my point. They definitely wanted to question Amanda, but did they want to question her right when Raffaele went in, or later, after they had put the screws to him? And did they want her out in the hall, or did they want her away from the questura, to go get her later? And does it matter, since almost everyone here agrees they wanted to talk to her? I don't think it matters. And I don't the cops thought it mattered much either.

What we or at least I have no idea about is what Raf was telling them from the very first interview on the 2nd at 3:45.

He had the interview with Mansey and her report indicates that he mixed up days and events. How inconsistent were his interviews with his other interviews and what he was saying on the phone etc.? I can't believe he signed his 5th/6th statement as he can read Italian.

Her text record to PL was of course of interest and she apparently hadn't mentioned it in previous interviews.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda flirting with Giobbi??? Never heard that one before. Next time we will be told she was flirting with Napoleoni.

Before entering the house Giobbi, Napoleoni, and others each put cloth booties over their shoes to protect the forensic integrity (what a joke) of the interior. Some leaned against the wall to help maintain their balance as they did so. Amanda while standing put booties over her shoes, one first then the other, without loosing her balance. Standing up straight, she then said "ta da". Giobbi thought of Italian TV game show girls' wiggle.

That's not what Amanda said.

 

[Kauffer]

The possibility that the police and prosecutor did believe the burglary was staged and that led to the course of events is could be the reality.

But the other possibility is that the police and prosecutor were corrupt and desiring of the very quickest resolution of the crime for several reasons (not all the same for each individual), such as satisfying political pressure for a quick resolution, gaining professional recognition, misogyny, and obsessions with sexual and "satanic" rituals.

In the latter possibility, the need to attribute the crime to a "convenient suspect", one close to Meredith, would suggest to the police and prosecutor to maintain that the break-in and burglary were staged.

On the whole I have to say that since banging up the burglar within a few weeks of the murder would have appeared to the world as if PLE, the prosecutor and the judiciary were of world class efficiency and utterly commendable, they were not "desiring of the very quickest resolution". I just think Mignini was mad and everyone else incompetent. I don't think they were clever enough for conspiracy. Later, there was such a conspiracy - to break the law and violate rights, but probably of the "noble cause" corruption kind. And Stefanoni weakly caved in to it by fixing her report. If I could put just one of them in prison it would be her not Mignini.

 

[Numbers]

They were confounded by their belief in the burglary first and it drove them to impossible further conclusions. It just couldn't be the simple case it was because if it.

The conclusion about the burglary combined with the later car park kiss and let's not wait for the forensics kind of approach. It's astonishing to me. Even now.

The possibility that the police and prosecutor did believe the burglary was staged and that led to the course of events is could be the reality.

But the other possibility is that the police and prosecutor were corrupt and desiring of the very quickest resolution of the crime for several reasons (not all the same for each individual), such as satisfying political pressure for a quick resolution, gaining professional recognition, misogyny, and obsessions with sexual and "satanic" rituals.

In the latter possibility, the need to attribute the crime to a "convenient suspect", one close to Meredith, would suggest to the police and prosecutor to maintain that the break-in and burglary were staged.

From Sophie Purton's Nov. 3 witness statement, I make the following observations:

The most interesting things about this witness statement from Sophie Purton:
1. The "generals" Giobbi and Profazio, and the "colonel" Napoleoni were present, suggesting the high level of importance that the police gave to this interview.
2. Purton states that Meredith told her Amanda Knox brought men home: "I (Purton) don't know how many".
3. Purton states: I think that, for Amanda, some of these men were only friends, while I think she slept with the one who works in the cyber cafè.
4. Purton states that Meredith smoked pot and Purton thinks Amanda smokes it also.
5. Purton states: I know Hicham knew Meredith because he met her though me, but I don’t know if Amanda knew him.
6. Purton is sworn to secrecy. I suggest this is important; among the witness statements translated so far, I believe only one other witness was sworn to secrecy, Stefano Bonassi, the downstairs neighbor, who had blood stains on his bed. Bonassi was interviewed by Giobbi, Profazio, and Napoleoni and also sworn to secrecy on his second interview, also on Nov. 3.

I believe (based on intuition and my biases) that Purton's statements, shown here as #2, 3, and 5, suggest that the police were aiming their suspicions at Amanda as of Nov. 3, 2007.

I suggest that the police solicited Purton's views on Amanda and on Amanda's relationships to men. The impression I have is that the police were seeking the male partner in the sex crime and murder that they were already considering to attribute to Amanda.

The secrecy imposed on Bonassi I suggest was so that he would not reveal that the downstairs evidence might complicate the police/prosecution theory of a murder by a flat mate and her male accomplice(s).

That imposed on Purton I suggest was to prevent any word of police/prosecution suspicion getting back to Amanda.

Bonassi was interviewed 3 times, Purton 2 times.

ETA: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/witness-depositions/

 

[Vixen]

Here we go again. This is just like the mountain of evidence, lie upon lie.

Where have I said that they were framing Amanda because she was American?

Where have I said that the police victimised her because she was an ugly American abroad?

All I said was that the police's job is to gather the evidence. It is then up to the prosecutors to determine if that evidence is good enough to secure a conviction.

The one fact that we should all be able to agree on is that the evidence gathering in this case was a cock up from the start.

You only have to look at social media. People seem to really believe a victory for Amanda is a victory for America.

Kurt Vonnegut Jr wrote about "Granfalloons", specious group identity.

I mean come on, Dr Crippen was American; I expect you are all baying for a posthumous pardon on those grounds.

 

[Grinder]

On the whole I have to say that since banging up the burglar within a few weeks of the murder would have appeared to the world as if PLE, the prosecutor and the judiciary were of world class efficiency and utterly commendable, they were not "desiring of the very quickest resolution". I just think Mignini was mad and everyone else incompetent. I don't think they were clever enough for conspiracy. Later, there was such a conspiracy - to break the law and violate rights, but probably of the "noble cause" corruption kind. And Stefanoni weakly caved in to it by fixing her report. If I could put just one of them in prison it would be her not Mignini.

Very much what I believe. Mignini DOES seem off the beam and the rest do seem incompetent. Steffy was definitely over her head not much better than PMF's DNA expert Laura, the receptionist at a Milan fashion house or was it Naples.

Here is a Vogt snip: But Laura Wray, an American molecular biologist living in Milan, Italy, who works regularly with DNA samples, said she believes many of the defense claims of contamination or poor match are "groundless."

Concerns about contamination aside, investigators have definitively matched DNA found on the bra clasp to Sollecito, said Wray, who has followed the case closely. However, Wray said the alleged murder weapon evidence is weakened by the fact that there wasn't enough DNA recovered from the knife to run a second set of tests. This may be a key point for the Knox defense.

 

[analemma]

Well it doesn't matter unless you are one that believes everything was set up from day one to get the pretty American girl as the most convenient victim person to frame, because they always just frame someone for murder.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest they were ordered to call in Amanda except Mr. Puffery's own statement made at the same time as being to suss out the kids from observation.

The police at the station that chided her for coming in were just acting, I suppose all part of the grand plan to frame the kids.

Grinder
Are you just being a devils advocate or what?
The Italian thugs KNEW that that night was the absolutely last night that they would be able to beat up and intimidate Amanda and Raf without a grown up around who might be able to help them.
The thugs had wiretapped Amanda's phone and knew her mother would arrive the next day so they had to act that night: Is there any doubt that that was their plan?
"Nothing to suggest"??????????????????????
Do you REALLY think it was a coincidence that the last night they could get to the kids when they would be vulnerable was the night that they struck?????
Maybe I do not understand what you are saying???????????????????????
OK. just answer this:
Do you think that the police targeting the kids on the night of 11/5 was a coincidence?
PS: I do not mean to slur these specific thugs because they are Italian, since I think that some police in other countries would employ the same thuggish tactics.

 

[Ken Dine]

Ken Dine,

Thanks for the re-post.

Of course, the information provided by Stefanoni does not really claim that the hairs were certainly, or even with some probability, from an African person, rather "likely to be Guede's". Only the color is mentioned, and no forensic detail.

Since finding an African man's hairs at the crime scene wouldn't help their case against Amanda, of course Stefanoni would downplay it.

Guede clearly has typical kinky black hair of an African person, and if Stefanoni grudgingly admitted those hairs found in Meredith's bedroom were "likely to be Guede's" hairs, then it logically follows that they were an African man's kinky hairs, even if Stefanoni had neglected to say as much.

Perhaps the police assumed the hairs were from an African soon after they were found, without detailed forensic examination.

As I said, I've lived with two different Black men (both wonderful guys and still my friends), and all men shed hair, and I could easily tell their hairs from mine when cleaning the bathroom. At other times, I'm sure they cleaned away my shed anglo hairs, too.

There are only 3 different hair types, African, Anglo and Asian. Meredith's hair type from both parents would have been "anglo" (since her mom was Indo-European). To differentiate Meredith's hair from an Asian person's hair may require a microscope (since both are straight and black), but an African person's hair is rather unique in appearance even to the naked eye.

The police had quickly focused in on an African suspect even before any forensics returned, so if not a kinky hair found at the crime scene, then what else could have it have been?

BTW - while you can tell race thru DNA testing today (I recently had mine done, and I'm a typical American mongrel), I doubt Stefanoni's lab was even capable of doing that back in 2007?

 

[Vixen]

What we or at least I have no idea about is what Raf was telling them from the very first interview on the 2nd at 3:45.

He had the interview with Mansey and her report indicates that he mixed up days and events. How inconsistent were his interviews with his other interviews and what he was saying on the phone etc.? I can't believe he signed his 5th/6th statement as he can read Italian.

Her text record to PL was of course of interest and she apparently hadn't mentioned it in previous interviews.

How did he "mix up days"? Halloween 31.10.2007 he was studying. 1.11.2007 he was at home all evening (remember???). When there was a vigil for Mez, he was at some graduation celebration dinner.

So, when did this "party" happen prior to Kate Mansey's interview?

When exactly was "Amanda first to find the body"?

 

[analemma]

You only have to look at social media. People seem to really believe a victory for Amanda is a victory for America.

Kurt Vonnegut Jr wrote about "Granfalloons", specious group identity.

I mean come on, Dr Crippen was American; I expect you are all baying for a posthumous pardon on those grounds.

Furthermore, they knew that Amanda was never going to leave Rafs side.
Even these yokels were smart enough to know that a 20 year old foreigner in a strange city whose roommate had just been brutally murdered would be too terrified to wander around by herself in a strange city where she did not even know the language.
And maybe they did not spotlight the pretty American from the first moment that they saw her but after a week of observing her American habits they were ready to apply any tactics they could to apply intolerable pressure this strange foreigner to force her to say something.
Yes, I do think that by 11/5 they were ready to frame her and get her to admit "what they already knew".

 

[analemma]

How did he "mix up days"? Halloween 31.10.2007 he was studying. 1.11.2007 he was at home all evening (remember???). When there was a vigil for Mez, he was at some graduation celebration dinner.

So, when did this "party" happen prior to Kate Mansey's interview?

When exactly was "Amanda first to find the body"?

He mixed up the days because the policeman thug told raf that his blood was going to be on the floor.

 

[Mr Fied]

You only have to look at social media. People seem to really believe a victory for Amanda is a victory for America.

Kurt Vonnegut Jr wrote about "Granfalloons", specious group identity.

I mean come on, Dr Crippen was American; I expect you are all baying for a posthumous pardon on those grounds.

So it's ok for you to make false accusations but not others.

I never said anything about them going after Amanda because she is American, yet you imply that's what I meant.

I would say that the verdict for Amanda and Raff is a victory for justice.

One other thing, why would someone being American make any difference to me?

I would have thought the main issue for any trial would be to find the truth, not to worry about their nationality.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder
Are you just being a devils advocate or what?
The Italian thugs KNEW that that night was the absolutely last night that they would be able to beat up and intimidate Amanda and Raf without a grown up around who might be able to help them.
The thugs had wiretapped Amanda's phone and knew her mother would arrive the next day so they had to act that night: Is there any doubt that that was their plan?

I guess Raf's dad and sister weren't adults. Beat up? Come on.

Do you think that the police targeting the kids on the night of 11/5 was a coincidence?
PS: I do not mean to slur these specific thugs because they are Italian, since I think that some police in other countries would employ the same thuggish tactics.

There was an on-going investigation. The kids had risen to the top of the suspect list. I believe that Raf's interviews with the police and the press were inconsistent. We don't details of much of the early interviews but Amanda not mentioning the PL texts seemed suspicious.

I don't know why they would have feared Edda more than the good doctor and his daughter.

I know that a judge said something about her mother arriving and it was on their minds.

 

[Ken Dine]

Comparing the hair DNA results to available DNA regional databases can show the general or specific ethnic background. It could show if the hair is of West African or Central African origin. The Ivory Coast is in West Africa. Lubumba is from Zaire/Congo in Central Africa. 23andme.com, a DNA testing service does this. I am a blue-eyed Caucasian with light skin tone of English/Welsh/Irish/Germanic origin and learned that I am also 1/2 of one percent West African origin and 1/4 of one percent other non-specified sub-Sahara African origin. Also 6 percent Scandanavian, which I assume is from the Viking presence in Britain a thousand years ago.

Unless the hair still has an attached follicle (typically found on pulled hairs but not shed hairs), it's rare to get any DNA from a naked hair shaft, so they probably didn't do any DNA testing on the hairs they found?

I'm likewise a blue-eyed Caucasian, and since you showed me yours, I'll show you mine (pasted below).


My grandson's DNA results are due in soon, which for me will be even more interesting than mine. My daughter is also blond with blue eyes (as is my granddaughter), but from my daughter's mom's side there is supposedly some Cherokee, so I'll be interested about that (which would show as Asian).

Her husband is a very dark Brazilian, who also has dual-citizenship with Italy, so my grandkiddies will likely have more southern European, as well as more African ancestry (lots of African DNA in the Brazilian gene pool).

My DNA results:

Europe 99%

• Great Britain 45%
• Ireland 19%
• European Jewish 18%
• Europe West 11%
• Trace Regions 6%
• Europe East 2%
• Italy/Greece 2%
• Iberian Peninsula < 1%
• Scandinavia < 1%


Africa < 1%

• Trace Regions < 1%
• Africa North < 1%

 

[Numbers]

Furthermore, they knew that Amanda was never going to leave Rafs side.
Even these yokels were smart enough to know that a 20 year old foreigner in a strange city whose roommate had just been brutally murdered would be too terrified to wander around by herself in a strange city where she did not even know the language.
And maybe they did not spotlight the pretty American from the first moment that they saw her but after a week of observing her American habits they were ready to apply any tactics they could to apply intolerable pressure this strange foreigner to force her to say something.
Yes, I do think that by 11/5 they were ready to frame her and get her to admit "what they already knew".

The police and prosecutor would have had Amanda under observation for only the latter part of Nov. 2 through Nov. 5, about 4 days at most. I believe, based on the Nov. 3 witness interview with Sophie Purton, and Giobbi's testimony, they had fixed on Amanda as a convenient suspect as of Nov. 3.

The significant police misconduct began, as far a I know, only on Nov. 5, with the interrogations. One could argue that the apparent suppression of the evidence from the downstairs flat was the earliest misconduct, since it may have begun as early as Nov. 3 with Stefano Bonassi's witness interview, but evidence of that suppression at that date is not as clear.

 

[Vixen]

He mixed up the days because the policeman thug told raf that his blood was going to be on the floor.

Kate Mansey is not a "police thug" she was a journalist for UK tabloid THE DAILY MIRROR.

Raffaele had spent the night at his own house on the other side of the city with his girlfriend, Meredith's American flatmate Amanda Knox, 22.

He said: "It was a normal night. Meredith had gone out with one of her English friends and Amanda and I went to party with one of my friends.

"The next day, around lunchtime, Amanda went back to their apartment to have a shower."

As Amanda, from Washington DC, stepped into house [sic B] she could tell there was something terribly wrong.

http://willsavive.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/repost-of-raffaele-sollecitos-interview.html


When was this party?

 

[Ken Dine]

Well it doesn't matter unless you are one that believes everything was set up from day one to get the pretty American girl as the most convenient victim person to frame, because they always just frame someone for murder.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest they were ordered to call in Amanda except Mr. Puffery's own statement made at the same time as being to suss out the kids from observation.

That clearly is NOT true!

There were around 12 detectives at the police station when Amanda & Raffaele arrived, and detectives usually have office hours, so they were all lined up and waiting to pounce on both kids that night.

Even Mignini was still there!

Do you really claim that all those resources were present at that hour to ONLY interrogate Raffaele?

REALLY?!?!

The police at the station that chided her for coming in were just acting, I suppose all part of the grand plan to frame the kids.

By Nov 5th Amanda was clearly their prime suspect, so why the eye roll?