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Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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There was an on-going investigation. The kids had risen to the top of the suspect list. I believe that Raf's interviews with the police and the press were inconsistent. We don't details of much of the early interviews but Amanda not mentioning the PL texts seemed suspicious.

I think Raff's inconsistent statements really caused some issues, for both of them. I am really not sure how he got so mixed up, unless he was just really stoned all the time. I don't think it is an indicator of guilt, because the stuff he told the cops did not match the known facts, but his statements (at least the ones we know about) to both the cops and Kate Mansey were really a cause for confusion. His taking a knife to the police station is another thing, and really quite a bit more of an "issue" than any stretching, or yoga, or whatever Amanda did in the hall.

I don't know why they would have feared Edda more than the good doctor and his daughter.

I know that a judge said something about her mother arriving and it was on their minds.

I have been told by friends in Italy that many in Italy, especially authorities, have a "thing" (my term) about America, and Americans. Not so much that they wanted to arrest her because she was from the US, but that they think that Americans, and especially our government, lawyers, etc. have powers they may not actually have. I think this is also what is behind the PG meme of Amanda being a "rich American" who somehow thought she was privileged, when her family were typical middle class people.

This is pure speculation, but it is quite possible that what they were afraid of is not so much Edda, but that she would get the US embassy involved, get Amanda a lawyer, call the CIA :eye-poppi, or whatever they might have imagined.
 
The police and prosecutor would have had Amanda under observation for only the latter part of Nov. 2 through Nov. 5, about 4 days at most. I believe, based on the Nov. 3 witness interview with Sophie Purton, and Giobbi's testimony, they had fixed on Amanda as a convenient suspect as of Nov. 3.

The significant police misconduct began, as far a I know, only on Nov. 5, with the interrogations. One could argue that the apparent suppression of the evidence from the downstairs flat was the earliest misconduct, since it may have begun as early as Nov. 3 with Stefano Bonassi's witness interview, but evidence of that suppression at that date is not as clear.

I find it very interesting that, in almost every witness statement of the various students and friends interviewed by police, they add something separate that is specifically about Amanda.

A typical witness statement reads as follows:

Yes, I knew Meredith. We had X other friends. We went to X together. We drank together, and went to discos. We went out together with X, Y and Z person.

I knew about Amanda. Meredith said X about Amanda. Amanda did not go with us when we went to X disco.

The point is, there is almost always a separate part of the witness statement that talks about Amanda. This indicates the police were asking specific, separate questions about Amanda and what they knew about her.

Sounds like a suspect to me.
 
How could he "trump up a charge"? I would most certainly have an alibi.

First, Bull. You can't control if you have an alibi. And Amanda HAD an alibi. She was with her new boyfriend. For cops that aren't idiots that would be enough. The lunacy of this whole affair is that some idiots actually think you conspire to kill someone with 2 other people that are veritable strangers.

I absolutely cannot understand why some people don't recognize that there is NO WAY that these three people would have done this together.
 
First, Bull. You can't control if you have an alibi. And Amanda HAD an alibi. She was with her new boyfriend. For cops that aren't idiots that would be enough. The lunacy of this whole affair is that some idiots actually think you conspire to kill someone with 2 other people that are veritable strangers.

I absolutely cannot understand why some people don't recognize that there is NO WAY that these three people would have done this together.

Enter dietrology.

The fact of the impossibility of three virtual strangers doing this together is seen as only a challange to the committed dietrolgist.

True, Amanda and Raffaele knew each other a total of nine days... so there's enough of a wedge to not deter a true dietrolgist, desperate to tell you the below the surface stuff only the initiate can see.

Read Mignini's 2009 closing. Pure unadulterated dietrology. He's not telling you what the evidence shows. He believes he's pulling back the curtain on what the evidence is masking!
 
Edited by Agatha: 
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Actually, as I've already posted here, Stefanoni testified that they had found 5 hairs consistent with Guede in Meredith's bedroom, my repost is below.


Stefanoni gave a hair length of 4 cm long or less, and she said that the 5 hairs found in Meredith's bedroom were consistent with Guede's hairs.

There are also different types of body hairs, such as head hair, arm hair, pubic hair, etc., which they can identify when testing it.

Guede's head hair would likely be short since he appears to have had closely cropped head hair, where Lumumba's head hair was longer. However, the hair they found may have been pubic hairs?

My earlier posting (from June 12th):
The only list of crime-scene hairs I know of is found on a 'Guilter' website –– see below, and since I can’t post URLs yet, add the “http” part of the URL yourself.

As with DNA, hair can be inadvertently transferred from one place to another.

That said, 5 African hairs consistent with Guede were found in Meredith's bedroom (too many to be inadvertently transferred there), which explains why the police had focused in on an African suspect early on in this case, and since Lumumba was the only African man the police knew Amanda had a relationship with, that explains how Lumumba's name came up in the wee hours of November 6th, 2007:

Hairs

(Dr. Stefanoni Genetic Test, SAL report, Dr. Stefanoni slide presentation):

1. Of the over 480 tests prepared on samples, 93 of these constituted hairs or fibers. 86 were human hairs of varying length, in varying colors. The most significant colors noted were black, blonde, chestnut, light chestnut and red chestnut.
[ ]

4. 7 hairs were black in color. 6 of these were 4 cm long or less, and so likely Guede’s hair. 4 of these were on the duvet and 1 was on the mattress cover, both in Ms. Kercher’s room. 1 was also on a sponge at Sollecito’s apartment.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List#Hairs
 
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Enter dietrology.

The fact of the impossibility of three virtual strangers doing this together is seen as only a challange to the committed dietrolgist.

True, Amanda and Raffaele knew each other a total of nine days... so there's enough of a wedge to not deter a true dietrolgist, desperate to tell you the below the surface stuff only the initiate can see.

Read Mignini's 2009 closing. Pure unadulterated dietrology. He's not telling you what the evidence shows. He believes he's pulling back the curtain on what the evidence is masking!

I'm really glad that I'm never likely to run into Mignini because I'd probably end up beating him to a pulp.

Amanda had met Raffaele 9 days earlier, but at least she knew him intimately. Rudy she had met two weeks ealing and not more than a few sentences were passed between them. And Rudy and Raffaele HAD NEVER EVEN MET!

But this doesn't matter to these morons. ?????
 
First, Bull. You can't control if you have an alibi. And Amanda HAD an alibi. She was with her new boyfriend. For cops that aren't idiots that would be enough. The lunacy of this whole affair is that some idiots actually think you conspire to kill someone with 2 other people that are veritable strangers.

I absolutely cannot understand why some people don't recognize that there is NO WAY that these three people would have done this together.

Raff withdrew his alibi for Amanda, saying he told the police a bucket of lies. He said Amanda asked him to lie for her.

At no time did Raff ever reinstate his alibi for his "fairytale love", even calling a press conference pre-Appeal to reiterate, hammer it home, emphasise, make very clear: He could not vouch for where Amanda was between 20:45 and 01:00.

He had every opportunity to take the stand. The police did not stop him.

Time for Raff to take responsibilty for his own actions.
 
Actually, as I've already posted here, Stefanoni testified that they had found 5 hairs consistent with Guede in Meredith's bedroom, my repost is below.
<snip>
Stefanoni gave a hair length of 4 cm long or less, and she said that the 5 hairs found in Meredith's bedroom were consistent with Guede's hairs.

There are also different types of body hairs, such as head hair, arm hair, pubic hair, etc., which they can identify when testing it.

Guede's head hair would likely be short since he appears to have had closely cropped head hair, where Lumumba's head hair was longer. However, the hair they found may have been pubic hairs?

Hi Ken Dine,

I agree,
in fact I was already adding an ETA as you wrote this...

And I've felt for some time that it might be a blond-ish pubic hair found in Meredith's grasp. Meaning Rudy's buddy was there that night. He mighta been the dude who stabbed her, he mighta been there in the morning with his old car seen in the driveway before the cops showed up, as Frank Sfarzo wrote about years ago. Maybe they, Rudy and a bro, were gonna try and get rid of the Meredith's body, after she refused their oral request, who knows.

Tragic,
but interesting case we discuss,
what with at least 1 lying cop and forensic investigator.

I'm sure that this was 1 of the biggest cases,
with world wide interest, that these police and investigators ever worked on...

It would have sucked to admit bein' wrong,
right?
 
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Raff withdrew his alibi for Amanda, saying he told the police a bucket of lies. He said Amanda asked him to lie for her.

At no time did Raff ever reinstate his alibi for his "fairytale love", even calling a press conference pre-Appeal to reiterate, hammer it home, emphasise, make very clear: He could not vouch for where Amanda was between 20:45 and 01:00.
He had every opportunity to take the stand. The police did not stop him.

Time for Raff to take responsibilty for his own actions.

It is amazing that anyone would even try to cite this (the highlighted part) post-exoneration.

First off, there is nothing to support that this is what Raffaele (or Bongiorno for him) did that at that press conference. All one needs to do, really, is read Raffaele's appeal document to the 2015 Cassazione.

It explains, in full, what is being misrepresented above. (The only fact is this - that it is solely the guilters, and no one else, who have ever claimed this about that press conference.)

The separation strategy is this: there is evidence that the prosecution is using against Amanda, which has nothing to do with Raffaele - but which the prosecution and former convicting panels have used to convict Raffaele.

Indeed this strategy appears to have worked. There is no evidence to convict Raffaele. None. Nil. Nada. The Italian Supreme Court, apparently, agrees.

If there is nothing to convict Raffaele, then he becomes Amanda's alibi - an alibi he did not withdraw - read his book - except when he was disallowed to clarify the difference between the previous Wednesday and Thursday nights, from the distance of the following Monday night.

Yet guilters continue to spread the lie. One can only wonder why - expecially post-exoneration.
 
Hi Ken Dine,

I agree,
in fact I was already adding an ETA as you wrote this...

And I've felt for some time that it might be a blond-ish pubic hair found in Meredith's grasp. Meaning Rudy's buddy was there that night. He mighta been the dude who stabbed her, he mighta been there in the morning with his old car seen in the driveway before the cops showed up, as Frank Sfarzo wrote about years ago. Maybe they, Rudy and a bro, were gonna try and get rid of the Meredith's body, after she refused their oral request, who knows.


As I recall, the car parked in the cottage's driveway was identified as being related to the car that broke down in front of the cottage that night.

Apparently, there was a group of friends in two cars, and after one of the cars broke down, the 2nd car pulled off of the road onto the cottage's driveway to await the tow truck.

Tragic,
but interesting case we discuss,
what with at least 1 lying cop and forensic investigator.

I'm sure that this was 1 of the biggest cases,
with world wide interest, that these police and investigators ever worked on...

It would have sucked to admit bein' wrong,
right?


Ya, in retrospect that victorious 'CASE CLOSED' news conference on Nov 6th made them look STOOPID, and after Lumumba's alibi checked out, they promptly doubled down instead of admitting they had prematurely shot their wad, and thus they consequently ended up looking doubly STOOPID!

When you flub up spectacularly like they did, it's always best to issue a prompt mea culpa and move on, but they instead chose the low-road.

This case will likely be studied at police academies and in law schools around the world as a classic of WHAT NOT TO DO when investigating and prosecuting a crime!
 
I'm really glad that I'm never likely to run into Mignini because I'd probably end up beating him to a pulp.

Amanda had met Raffaele 9 days earlier, but at least she knew him intimately. Rudy she had met two weeks ealing and not more than a few sentences were passed between them. And Rudy and Raffaele HAD NEVER EVEN MET!

But this doesn't matter to these morons. ?????

Like Douglas Preston had to do, we all need to educate ourselves about dietrology. Mignini's pronouncements (particularly at the 2009 trial) are pure dietrology. It's not just that there was no evidence for most of the stuff he presented (apparently Comodi handled the presentation of the faux-DNA evidence) - dietrology relies on there being no evidence.....

...... because the dietrologist sees the absence of evidence as not necessarily the evidence of absence. The story is the thing. The deviousness of the purposeful, and successful, hiding of evidence, and the replacement of it with diverting evidence (the fake break-in, even though it is a real break-in) is all fire for the dietrologist's steam engine.

Real evidence becomes fake evidence. Rumour becomes fact. Heroin addicts' memoris six-months hence become even more trustworthy, even when he seems to be confusing Hallowe'en with Nov 1st - even as Raffaele is condemned for not being able to manage hose two dates himself.

Dietrology. If the body you exhume is the one that should have been in that box, then there had to have been a double-body-swap. The presence of the wrong/right body, rather than disproving the dietrologist's claim, only proves it.

It's why, upthread, that poster rightly said, "all the evidence against the pair was judicially generated."
 
He often told amazing stories whilst in the intelligence services. One escapade involved something to do with Mercedes cars transported abroad. All spooks together, and all that.

I met a guy in a bar once like this. His name was Walter Mitty, or at least should have been.
 
It is amazing that anyone would even try to cite this (the highlighted part) post-exoneration.

First off, there is nothing to support that this is what Raffaele (or Bongiorno for him) did that at that press conference. All one needs to do, really, is read Raffaele's appeal document to the 2015 Cassazione.

It explains, in full, what is being misrepresented above. (The only fact is this - that it is solely the guilters, and no one else, who have ever claimed this about that press conference.)

The separation strategy is this: there is evidence that the prosecution is using against Amanda, which has nothing to do with Raffaele - but which the prosecution and former convicting panels have used to convict Raffaele.

Indeed this strategy appears to have worked. There is no evidence to convict Raffaele. None. Nil. Nada. The Italian Supreme Court, apparently, agrees.

If there is nothing to convict Raffaele, then he becomes Amanda's alibi - an alibi he did not withdraw - read his book - except when he was disallowed to clarify the difference between the previous Wednesday and Thursday nights, from the distance of the following Monday night.

Yet guilters continue to spread the lie. One can only wonder why - expecially post-exoneration.
:rolleyes: When the truth doesn't work......tell a lie. I've read what Raffaele said an HE NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER said any of the nonsense that Vixen is claiming now. But hey, why let the truth get in the way of making an argument? About the only thing Raffaele has ever said is that he couldn't say what Amanda was doing WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING!
But he has added to that by saying Amanda didn't have a key to his apartment so he couldn't see how it would have been possible.
 
Like Douglas Preston had to do, we all need to educate ourselves about dietrology. Mignini's pronouncements (particularly at the 2009 trial) are pure dietrology. It's not just that there was no evidence for most of the stuff he presented (apparently Comodi handled the presentation of the faux-DNA evidence) - dietrology relies on there being no evidence.....

...... because the dietrologist sees the absence of evidence as not necessarily the evidence of absence. The story is the thing. The deviousness of the purposeful, and successful, hiding of evidence, and the replacement of it with diverting evidence (the fake break-in, even though it is a real break-in) is all fire for the dietrologist's steam engine.

Real evidence becomes fake evidence. Rumour becomes fact. Heroin addicts' memoris six-months hence become even more trustworthy, even when he seems to be confusing Hallowe'en with Nov 1st - even as Raffaele is condemned for not being able to manage hose two dates himself.

Dietrology. If the body you exhume is the one that should have been in that box, then there had to have been a double-body-swap. The presence of the wrong/right body, rather than disproving the dietrologist's claim, only proves it.

It's why, upthread, that poster rightly said, "all the evidence against the pair was judicially generated."

I have a real problem assigning all of this nonsense to that Bill. For me it's plain old stupidity and people not using their noggin. You shouldn't have to be a Mensa member to understand the total absurdity of this case.
 
Raff withdrew his alibi for Amanda, saying he told the police a bucket of lies. He said Amanda asked him to lie for her.

At no time did Raff ever reinstate his alibi for his "fairytale love", even calling a press conference pre-Appeal to reiterate, hammer it home, emphasise, make very clear: He could not vouch for where Amanda was between 20:45 and 01:00.

He had every opportunity to take the stand. The police did not stop him.

Time for Raff to take responsibilty for his own actions.

Such nonsense. Each trial court's premise is that both Amanda and Raffaele are each other's alibis. On appeal, Raffaele is making a nuanced argument responding to the prosecution's case against him. The statement he signed in the questura you refer to was obviously written up for him. It wasn't one he ever made. The police didn't believe it otherwise he would not have been arrested. You don't believe it either. What relevance does it have?
 
Bill thanks a million I now understand why so many people on the PIP side believe much of the deep conspiratorial things about the PLE and ILE - Dietrology!

Rudi's MO known to the PLE upon entering the cottage. Rudi an obvious unpaid informant. Giobbi's secret orders to call them both in together. The PLE targeting the kids from day one because they were convenient targets. Framing, framing, framing.

Yup Dietrology for sure.
 
Bill thanks a million I now understand why so many people on the PIP side believe much of the deep conspiratorial things about the PLE and ILE - Dietrology!

Rudi's MO known to the PLE upon entering the cottage. Rudi an obvious unpaid informant. Giobbi's secret orders to call them both in together. The PLE targeting the kids from day one because they were convenient targets. Framing, framing, framing.

Yup Dietrology for sure.

My view is more of a "they looked around, thought Amanda and Raff were acting weird, focused on them, figured they must have done it with someone else (Lumumba)". Given that their usual method is to try to solve the crime via their hunches from behavior (and talking to witnesses, about behavior), they wanted to solve it, thinking their hunch would prove right, the perps would cave and tell on each other, and then the DNA and other forensics would come back and support the case they had already solved.

Except they got in too deep, dove head first into the AK, RS, and PL pool. And they were wrong on all three. That is where I am torn between the PLE not wanting to admit they made a major screw up, or having convinced themselves AK and RS must be guilty, and putting blinders on.
 
An old Peugeot, seen in the morning...

As I recall, the car parked in the cottage's driveway was identified as being related to the car that broke down in front of the cottage that night.

Apparently, there was a group of friends in two cars, and after one of the cars broke down, the 2nd car pulled off of the road onto the cottage's driveway to await the tow truck.
<snip>

Hiya Ken Dine,
You are talking about a car seen at night.
here some more detailed info about this, for it appears that more than 1 car was seen that night near or in the driveway:

19:30 Guede claims he left home shortly after TG3 regional started and headed to the cottage and noticed a car parked outside the gates when he arrived.

19:51 First sighting of Rudy Guede on CCTV and a parked car outside the cottage gates. Guede seen walking through the car park towards the cottage gates. CCTV time stamp is 19:41.

20.01 Hekuran Kokomani’s cell phone pings off a tower servicing the cottage.
<snip>

22.30 Time approximate: A car breaks down at the exit of the parking garage across from the cottage. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that he called for assistance and nothing out of the ordinary happened while waiting. He heard no screams or saw anyone at the cottage. Note – He was part of a group of people traveling in two cars and had just finished dinner when the car broke down. None of the group noticed or heard anything. The second car in the group parked outside the cottage gates waiting for the repair man.

23.00 Mechanic arrives for broken down car. Gianfranco Lombardo was called between 22.30-22.40. He left his house in Bastia and arrived within 15 to 20 minutes. In a previous verbale he had said he arrived at about 11pm. It took him 10 to 15 minutes to load up the car and document it. He finished the job at about 23:15. He noted the gate of via della Pergola was open, and there was a car parked there, probably of a dark color. Parked car belonged to a friend of Pasqualino Coletta. Lombardo didn’t see any lights on in the house. He left at the latest at 23:20 and didn’t notice anybody pass by on the road or hear any screams etc.[35] The CCTV shows Lombardo arriving at 11.14pm and the tow truck remains stationary to 11.24pm (time adjusted forward 10mins)

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/timeline-november-1/

* * *


Did you know that supposedly Hekuran Kokomani
had a conversation with the tow truck driver?
Koko apparently testified to this in The Massei Court on March 28, 2008.

From old Peruga Shock, dated April 2 of 2009,
link here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182419/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html
"A tow truck comes forward, inside there's a man, a woman and a boy. They ask Hekuran directions for Cesena. He answers What time is it?. He doesn't understand their replay. Probably it was This one is crazy, let's go. How rude, so we will never know exactly what time it was."


My opinion only,
but that is a weird statement to make in court.
Why did Koko state he talked with the tow truck driver?
Was he there that night?

I'd luv to read an English translation of any depositions or courtroom testimony from Hekuran Kokomani.

* * *

The Dark Car.

But what I was really talking about was a dark car,
seen on the morning after the murder,
in the driveway,
shortly before the cops arrived...

What am I talking about?
From old Perugia Shock,
Monday, November 24, 2008
Testimony Fever
Fund rising in Seattle, witness rising in Perugia

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182544/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

The one who saw the Peugeot in the garden is reliable: he's sure that it was in the morning of November 2 because he remembers that right after the police arrived.
<snip>
Rudy asked the Albanian his car, predicting that he had to transport the body together with the others. And indeed he had an old dark car already in the evening of 31st, when the mechanic saw it --for sure-- outside the gate. That old car was the same old Peugeot that was in the garden in the morning of the 2nd, ready to take the body away. But the body was too complicated to be taken so they where happy with just the cell phones. They drove away and they toss them, directly from the car, in Lana's garden.


Here's another tidbit of info:
And from another old Perugia Shock posting, dated Dec. 2, 2008:
A fifth new witness recalled that later in the same morning there was an old Peugeot in the garden. So they went to try take the body with that car that Rudy had borrowed from someone. But maybe the car arrived too late, and carrying the body in the daylight became too risky. So they just took Meredith cellphones, they drove away and they tossed them from the car (just outside Rudy and Raffaele's house...).

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182529/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html

* * *

With said,
The Grinder has sorta explored some issues that I have too with this case we discuss.
meaning that he too has wondered if Rudy had a friend there that night,
namely Hekuran Kokomani.

So let me examine this a bit, ok, just for fun,
going off my memory, the details are around here in the old archives
of all that we've discussed over the years.

Rudy and Koko are ridin' a crime wave,
it was they were who busted into the lawyers office.
Someone disabled the burglar alarm, even though it wasn't activated, if I recall correctly.
Who, Rudy or someone more experienced?

So Rudy and his bro are gonna hit up and rip off the Boyz + Girlz flat,
to get whatever they can.

They park the old car of Koko's in the driveway, Koko's the look-out, Rudy, as simply as tossin' a free throw into the basket, breaks the glass to Filomena's bedroom and then quickly climbs up + in. While Rudy is inside, Meredith comes home. Koko sees her, watches her and follows. After dropping off her borrowed book in her bedroom, she heads downstairs to feed + check on the cat, this is when Koko, following her, attacks her. Getting her submissive, he takes her back upstairs and she possibly screams out for help, the folks in the CCTV video hear this commotion and look towards the cottage. She is forced inside. Rudy is on the toilet,
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Edited for breach of rule 10
.
Koko tries to have some fun, err oral with Meredith. She fights back, is subdued,
she submits, but then does something she that hurt Koko, so he stabs her in anger, again+again.

Rudy comes out and finds this scene, tries to help as Koko flees, who leaves not much DNA nor traces of himself. Or did he? 2 un-attributed fingerprints were found, IIRC, on the inside of Meredith's bedroom door knob. Guede tries to help save Meredith, but then, freaked out, bails. Maybe they met up later that night at the clubs, who knows? Did Guede pull an all nighter after bailing the night clubs or did he get a good night sleep, while seein' red? Was it Koko's old car that someone saw in the driveway the following morning before the cops showed up?
 
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Except they got in too deep, dove head first into the AK, RS, and PL pool. And they were wrong on all three. That is where I am torn between the PLE not wanting to admit they made a major screw up, or having convinced themselves AK and RS must be guilty, and putting blinders on.

Yeah it's hard to figure. Generally I think they believed and believe the kids were involved if not central and they believe 3 compatibles equals a match so they have at least a few pieces of evidence.

I noted that in their arrest doc they said Raf's shoes were compatible with the prints they found. They thought they had them. Unlike the previous murder of a college student, this time they got the killers.
 
:rolleyes: When the truth doesn't work......tell a lie. I've read what Raffaele said an HE NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER said any of the nonsense that Vixen is claiming now. But hey, why let the truth get in the way of making an argument? About the only thing Raffaele has ever said is that he couldn't say what Amanda was doing WHILE HE WAS SLEEPING!
But he has added to that by saying Amanda didn't have a key to his apartment so he couldn't see how it would have been possible.

It's documented. Even in Raff's own book and witness statement.
 
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