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Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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Oh well, De Wessellow thinks the body imprint is incredibly authentic. <shrug>
So what? Actual scientists disagree.

It was tested 1988. IIRC only once before. What is the problem in agreeing testing standards acceptable to all, with blind controls, as an ongoing research project? Sending off nine samples from one tiny area of the cloth, with no controls, is not satisfactory by any stretch of imagination. Bring in the archaeological scientists. Let the Vatican scientists have a bash.

Let's have transparency!
Why not indeed. However the RCC has declined to allow any further testing as they're quite aware that such tests will further show the cloth is a medieval fake.
 
- How can you all expect a newcomer to read the 13,000 posts she missed in order to find your proofs? Give Vixen some specific evidence refuting her arguments.
The forum has a search function, two of them in fact. Why should we waste time rehasing the same nonsense already dealt with?

- You keep saying that you've refuted all of my arguments,
We have.
but you haven't -- you've refuted some of my arguments, but only a few.
A lie.
Show her just where you have refuted them, other than those I've admitted to.
:rolleyes: S/he can do his/her own research.

She seems a lot quicker than me and can probably find some time to respond to some of your so-called refutations that I couldn't find time for.
You've comprehensively ignored all the facts in your need for the cloth to be genuine.



ETA: thanks for fixing the tags, I didn't notice.
 
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- How can you all expect a newcomer to read the 13,000 posts she missed in order to find your proofs?
Easy - read from the beginning (many lurkers* including myself here have), then join in.



* Haven't heard of many of those being convinced yet BTW
 
That question's a joke, isn't it? This is from the Economist. The Pope was careful to endorse the authenticity of the Shroud in no way, during his recent visit to Turin. Read his words.

ETA. Here they are, from the National Catholic Reporter.

Thanks, Craig.

BTW whatever happened to the vow of poverty? :rolleyes:
 
I'll just add that if you demand blinded control samples as a requirement for all scientific data then you have just dismissed ALL astronomy, the vast majority of physics and chemistry, and a fair chunk of biology.

The type of control needed is dependent on the data you are looking at. For instrumental data what is needed are controls that test the accuracy and precision of the instrument, which the C14 test on the Shroud had in ample sufficiency.
 
What do you mean, no controls? Are you going to explain your comment about the Zurich sample being 1000 years off, when it wasn't?

This was their sample no. 1 at Woelfi's Zurich lab, 1,000 years too young, and sample 3, 1,000 years too old. [Burleigh et al p 574]. I feel sure they did not just take the mean of the the two to come to their final figure ;/


Why? What do you think they would add?

Who's stopping them?

About what? What is being hidden?


Only Zurich, Oxford and Arizona were given sampling. The archaeologists and the Vatican scientists were snubbed. What would they add? Balance. Archaeologists estimate dates with an extra dimension of historical context, as carbon dating is often inexact. The Vatican scientists can be reassured that the 14C carbon dating laboratories have produced reliable figures, if they get to test the same samples themselves, as the religious POV.
 
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It is called research and learning. Nothing comes easy and learning is more effective if done on your own. At school did you complain to your teacher about how she could expect you to read up on all those centuries of stuff that constituted the collected knowledge to date?

Actually, going through the two threads from the begining is actually the easy way out. After all the p[eople who originally posted did all the hard work.

I sat through abut 15+ accountancy exams, 10 psychology final exams, produced 15 lab reports over two years (ditto), two women's post colonial literature and personal development creative writing diplomas, two Institute of Linguists exams, a couple of Institute of Statisticians exams, the whole range of academic subjects at school (top in most of them, or near top).

Trust me, I have never been one to "take the easy way out"!
 
Indeed, and has also been pointed out one of the labs also ashed the samples to ensure blinding, though I'd like to know how anyone's knowledge of which sample is which could possibly affect the machine which produced the readings.

Blinding is essential when judgement is required to interpret the results (eg in a clinical trial, when a doctor needs to assess how much improvement the patients have made so should not know which were taking the medication and which the placebo) but there is no judgement required to read a figure off an instrument. Suggesting that the results can't be accepted if they weren't blinded is tantamount to accusing the three labs of deliberately falsifying their results.


The three laboratories (Zurich, Arizona and Oxford) used a technique called Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) which came out of a survey by New Scientist badly. It found the margin of error for 14c carbon dating to be one to three times greater than reported, and of 38 laboratories, only SEVEN were"satisfactory". IOW 80% labs failed in accuracy.

The Zurich results could conceivably have been arrived at because the scientists assessed "it looks right", having decided +1,000 was too much and -1,000 too few. (Halo effect = confirming your preconceptions.)

People who can easily shrug off historians such as Josephus, nonetheless eagerly embrace anything with the label "science", even if demonstrably defective.
 
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I'll just add that if you demand blinded control samples as a requirement for all scientific data then you have just dismissed ALL astronomy, the vast majority of physics and chemistry, and a fair chunk of biology.

The type of control needed is dependent on the data you are looking at. For instrumental data what is needed are controls that test the accuracy and precision of the instrument, which the C14 test on the Shroud had in ample sufficiency.

What he said.
 
Is there any way to tell, from carbon dating, if the Shroud is from the future?
 
Only Zurich, Oxford and Arizona were given sampling. The archaeologists and the Vatican scientists were snubbed. What would they add? Balance. Archaeologists estimate dates with an extra dimension of historical context, as carbon dating is often inexact. The Vatican scientists can be reassured that the 14C carbon dating laboratories have produced reliable figures, if they get to test the same samples themselves, as the religious POV.
Accelerator Mass Spectroscopy for radiocarbon dating was a new technique and few laboratories had the facilities. The original proposal (from scientists BTW) was to use seven labs and two different techniques for radiocarbon analysis, plus numerous other tests. However the Vatican and STURP prevented this programme.
Hence three labs and an exemplary example of 14C dating show that, in agreement with the other evidence, the shroud was a medieval fake.

To summarise:
Fact 1: Three independent laboratories used a reputable carbon dating method on an agreed portion of this piece of cloth. They also tested some controls.
Fact 2: All three laboratories dated the cloth within a range of between the mid 13th century to the late 14th century.
Fact 3: One of the laboratories introduced a blinding stage, to ensure that nobody could accuse them of bias, error or collusion.
Fact 4: All the laboratories sub-divided their supplied samples and applied different techniques to remove contamination.
Fact 5: The textile experts who studied the sampled area agreed that it was free from scorching, repair or patching.
Fact 6: The micro-photographs taken by STURP show the linen banding proceeding uninterrupted through the sampled area. This banding is invisible to the naked eye. There is no patch.
Fact 7: To produce the achieved result in error from an actual first century CE cloth a huge amount of modern material would have be needed to be mixed with the cloth. This would be obvious to those who studied the cloth.

And finally: the shroud is a medieval fake. This has been well established by scientific testing (chemical, microscopic, spectroscopic and radioisotopic), expert examination (textile, weave and artistic style) and historical research (comparison to others, culture and documentation) and is supported by other evidence:

Historical: the lack of evidence for the shroud's existence prior to the mid fourteenth century; further it's emergence during the 'holy relic' craze (along with about forty other such burial shrouds); lack of mention of a miraculously imaged Shroud in any early Christian writings; the distinct changes in the shroud, fading of colour, since its first exposure.

Physiological: the lack of resemblance of the shroud image to an actual human body; likewise the position of the body with hands folded across the genitals isn't possible for a body lying flay (the arms aren't long enough).

Textile: the weave patten of the shroud does not match anything known from first century Mid East but matches medieval Europe well; no example of the complex herringbone twill weave has even been shown to come from the first century Mid East.

Testimony: the d'Arcis Memo indicates the shroud was created around 1354 and was a known fake not many year later.

Artistic: the face of the image resembles medieval Byzantine style, with Gothic elements; the unnaturally elongated body shape and extremities are typical of the elongated style the Late Medieval/High Gothic period.

Reproducibility: contrary to the claims of shroudies the image can and has been reproduced using medieval methods.

Analytic: examination, microscopic (including electron microscopy) and chemical testing show the shroud image is made from common artistic pigments of the period of its origin.

Cultural: the shroud does not match with what is known of first century Jewish burial practices (including the only actual sample of such cloths) or the only extant sample of such burial cloths; nor does the shroud match the biblical accounts; nor are there any demonstrated artifacts of the putative Jesus extant today; nor does the supposed historical background indicate that such a cloth would have been preserved, certainly without much publicity prior to ~1355.

Serological: a minor point (as blood probably wouldn't survive this long anyway) but despite the best attempts of (and much lying and pseudoscience by) shroudies there is no evidence for blood residue.

Frankly the consensus of all the factors is the strongest reason to accept the medieval origin of the shroud, not any one factor.
 
This was their sample no. 1 at Woelfi's Zurich lab, 1,000 years too young, and sample 3, 1,000 years too old. [Burleigh et al p 574]. I feel sure they did not just take the mean of the the two to come to their final figure ;/





Only Zurich, Oxford and Arizona were given sampling. The archaeologists and the Vatican scientists were snubbed. What would they add? Balance. Archaeologists estimate dates with an extra dimension of historical context, as carbon dating is often inexact. The Vatican scientists can be reassured that the 14C carbon dating laboratories have produced reliable figures, if they get to test the same samples themselves, as the religious POV.

Every 14C lab in the world was snubbed except for those three. Did you have some other, less obvious point?

An archaeologist wasn't necessary. Physicists and chemists are quite capable of doing 14C dating. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the shroud's owner - The Vatican
 
I sat through abut 15+ accountancy exams, 10 psychology final exams, produced 15 lab reports over two years (ditto), two women's post colonial literature and personal development creative writing diplomas, two Institute of Linguists exams, a couple of Institute of Statisticians exams, the whole range of academic subjects at school (top in most of them, or near top).

Trust me, I have never been one to "take the easy way out"!
And yet you accuse others of fakery and deceit.

The three laboratories (Zurich, Arizona and Oxford) used a technique called Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS)
AMS was used because it requires a small sample, this was the result of a decision made by the RCC.

which came out of a survey by New Scientist badly.
Citation?

The Zurich results could conceivably have been arrived at because the scientists assessed "it looks right", having decided +1,000 was too much and -1,000 too few. (Halo effect = confirming your preconceptions.)
:rolleyes:

People who can easily shrug off historians such as Josephus, nonetheless eagerly embrace anything with the label "science", even if demonstrably defective.
Are you still prattling on about the Testamoniam Flavium? It's a fake, accept it.
Science provides actual answers.

Is there any way to tell, from carbon dating, if the Shroud is from the future?
Not really. The standards wouldn't have the necessary data.
 
I sat through abut 15+ accountancy exams, 10 psychology final exams, produced 15 lab reports over two years (ditto), two women's post colonial literature and personal development creative writing diplomas, two Institute of Linguists exams, a couple of Institute of Statisticians exams, the whole range of academic subjects at school (top in most of them, or near top).

Trust me, I have never been one to "take the easy way out"!

Until now.
 
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