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Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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By some scholars, perhaps. You really need to learn more about the Testimonium before you appeal to it as "evidence".



There are multiple threads dealing with Josephus and his supposed ilk. You really ought to get up to speed.

Not to mention, suppose argumentum (and ONLY argumentum), that the MJ in all his water-walkin', fish-sharin', fig-tree-cursin' glory could be proved to have existed. What, in your opinion, ties that figure to the CIQ? Be specific, your assertions will be (and likely already have been) contested.



Congratulations! Suppose you explain in what way de Wesselow finds fault with the 14C dating? Again, be specific, and be prepared to defend your assertions.



You may want to brush up on the definition of "assumptions"...



It is patently clear that you are either ignorant of, or willing to ignore, two monstrous and protracted threads. Consider, for example, that you appear to be glossing over the nature and characteristics of the image itself. Do consider getting up to speed...



Whoosh. Deal with analogy much? (FTR, in that analysis, C.S. Forrester is analogically equivalent to Josephus. Horatio, himself, is analogically equivalent to Joesphus' supposed reference to "the Christ".)



I invite you to demonstrate where, in your opinion, this assumption occurs. Be specific. Or are you another of those that can read minds?


I invite you to demonstrate where, in your opinion, this assumption occurs. Be specific. Or are you another of those that can read minds?



I invite you to demonstrate where, in your opinion, this assumption occurs. Be specific. Or are you another of those that can read minds?



Do yourself a favor. If, in fact, you do present such a summary, get up to speed and make sure that your points have not already been addressed, in this thread and its progenitor.

And do consider addressing what is actually posted, not what you wish had been.


Soz, I mixed your message up with #3422 Susheel. Re science vs religion.

Any debate that centres around science and religion is sure to end in tears :'(

However, I'll refresh my memory as to what de Wesselow says about the carbon dating. IIRC the scientists or the public have only been allowed near the shroud (there might only be a few days left to see the current showing) two or three times.

Then there came a lot of political spin and quarrelling about the carbon dating.

Whilst the shroud might be relatively modern, it would be difficult to fake the image of a crucified man. Whether that man is Jesus, whom historians do accept existed, is yet another matter.

Sadly, if a fake, the current Pope was recently gazing at it and touching the frame to no avail.
 
Soz, I mixed your message up with #3422 Susheel. Re science vs religion.

Any debate that centres around science and religion is sure to end in tears :'(

However, I'll refresh my memory as to what de Wesselow says about the carbon dating. IIRC the scientists or the public have only been allowed near the shroud (there might only be a few days left to see the current showing) two or three times.

Then there came a lot of political spin and quarrelling about the carbon dating.

Whilst the shroud might be relatively modern, it would be difficult to fake the image of a crucified man. Whether that man is Jesus, whom historians do accept existed, is yet another matter.

Sadly, if a fake, the current Pope was recently gazing at it and touching the frame to no avail.

Please just take the time to read the thread. I know it is very long, but your points so far have already been responded to, and the repetition in this thread is already extreme. It would be great if you brought up new evidence, new arguments, and new rebuttals to the posts that already discredited arguments previously made by Jabba (and which parallel many of the ones you have just presented). In my mind it is impolite to jump into a thread and in essence demand that everyone re-iterate what they already repeatedly posted because one doesn't wish to spend the time to review what has already been discussed in the thread.

On the other hand, welcome to the thread and I and others would truly love you to present truly novel arguments and evidence, given that we are not going anywhere new at the moment.

As to the highlighted part: yes, it would be difficult to accurately fake the image of a crucified man. Which is why the Shroud is so obviously faked given the impossible proportions of the man in the image, and the lack of 3-D mapping on the 2D Shroud. You are correct: an undetectable fake would be difficult to achieve, which is why the Shroud is an easily detectable fake. If you want details, just go back a few pages in the thread for the specifics.
 
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Vixen...are you willfully trying to misinterpret a concluding statement I made, just to prove a point? No, I am not a scientist...far from it. But I try very hard to maintain what my country's first prime minister called a "scientific temper". We can have a discussion of this elsewhere if you wish.
 
Soz, I mixed your message up with #3422 Susheel. Re science vs religion.

Any debate that centres around science and religion is sure to end in tears :'(

However, I'll refresh my memory as to what de Wesselow says about the carbon dating. IIRC the scientists or the public have only been allowed near the shroud (there might only be a few days left to see the current showing) two or three times.

Then there came a lot of political spin and quarrelling about the carbon dating.

Whilst the shroud might be relatively modern, it would be difficult to fake the image of a crucified man. Whether that man is Jesus, whom historians do accept existed, is yet another matter.

There has been no spin or quarreling about the 14C date amongst those most familiar with the testing.

Why would it be difficult to fake the image of a crucified man?
 
Soz, I mixed your message up with #3422 Susheel. Re science vs religion.

Any debate that centres around science and religion is sure to end in tears :'(

However, I'll refresh my memory as to what de Wesselow says about the carbon dating. IIRC the scientists or the public have only been allowed near the shroud (there might only be a few days left to see the current showing) two or three times.

Then there came a lot of political spin and quarrelling about the carbon dating.

Whilst the shroud might be relatively modern, it would be difficult to fake the image of a crucified man. Whether that man is Jesus, whom historians do accept existed, is yet another matter.

Sadly, if a fake, the current Pope was recently gazing at it and touching the frame to no avail.

As David Mitchell said, "You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."

In my sig line in 3...2...1
 
While I am here: what ever happened to the promised one-on-one debate between Jabba and Hugh? Also i if Jabba truly wants a simplified debate, one issue at a time with one opponent, then why does he respond with obvious relief on any new poster/topic and introduce new topics himself all the time rather than answer the repeated question "What evidence do you have that the Shroud is 2000 years old?"


I also have noticed how Jabba's memory seems to be highly selective.
 
While I am here: what ever happened to the promised one-on-one debate between Jabba and Hugh? Also i if Jabba truly wants a simplified debate, one issue at a time with one opponent, then why does he respond with obvious relief to any new poster/topic and introduce new topics himself all the time rather than answer the repeated question "What evidence do you have that the Shroud is 2000 years old?"

I also have noticed his highly selective memory.
 
Tellingly, John Southwell died in 1654, in the middle ages. Also, you appear to admit that relics of Thomas Becket (died, 1170) are fakes (as he can't have been buried in 5 different caskets). Circumstantially, you admit that christians (Catholics mostly) tend to venerate relics. You place the earliest date at the Crusades, which began in 1095.

You're still about a thousand years short of the goal.

You present no evidence, even circumstantial, that Jews ever venerated relics. We didn't. And Jews would have been the only people interested in Jesus at the time of his death. Nor do you present any evidence that any relic at all from 2000 years ago is authentic.

So, your vague guess about how such a thing as a shroud from 2000 years ago might have been preserved is worthy of ridicule. It is a fantasy for which no evidence exists.

In fact, all the evidence we have - from three separate 14C tests that all agreed with each other to written records of the Shroud which only go back 780 years to the shroud's residence in Italy rather than Jerusalem to our knowledge of the christian practice of counterfeiting first century relics - demonstrates a medieval origin. If you know of any direct evidence that the thing is 2000 years old, I would be happy to hear it. Jabba has proven incapable of finding any.

I do not mock your story in order to show that such a theory has no credibility (which would be an ad hom. falacy). I mock it because it has been shown to have no credibility.

No, they are not fakes (they are held by various museums Glasgow, London, France). They were designed to hold just one or two bits of bone, usually finger, so five is not an anomaly.

Historically, when the Roman empire split in two, the western side adopted the Judeo-Christianity of the then area of Jerusalem they occupied, and later ransacked, in Jesus' time. It could be said the Romans simply substituted their panapoly of Gods and Goddesses, themselves borrowed from the Ancient Greeks, hence their perceived idolotrous behaviour. For example, the worship of the Virgin Mary, touching "Holy" statues, all the pomp and circumstance of ceremony.

Whilst this might be a far cry from early Jewish worship which involves an invisible God and no "graven images", nonetheless, Christianity comes with the Abrahamic package of prophets, angels and the Messiah, with the added saints as a remnant of the old Gods and Goddesses.

It could be said the custom of Catholics collecting bones of so called dead saints is directly derived from the ancient Jewish custom of ossification, although these were collected and placed in ossuries, rather than on personal shrines.

Assume for a moment Jesus existed, was crucified, the Jewish Elder Joseph of Arimathea took the body into the Garden of Gethsemane. Whether or not Jesus rose from the dead, after a year or so, Jesus, being a practising Jew, would have had his bones collected.

Instead, we have the shroud, as of course, he didn't die and that was what was left behind in the empty tomb.

Why wouldn't Mary keep it?

As you know, Paul, formerly known as Christian persecutor, Saul, did indeed start the early church.
 
Youe evidence for the flawed nature of the C14 dating Vixen. You have taken time to answer everything else but this. The first claim you made. So please provide this, and please make sure that what you provide has not already been debunked.
 
As David Mitchell said, "You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."

In my sig line in 3...2...1

You are assuming you are better informed than me and that I am uninformed, yet you haven't actually debated why. Should we all just accept that your assertion is true, without question? From here, it looks like brinkmanship.
 
Youe evidence for the flawed nature of the C14 dating Vixen. You have taken time to answer everything else but this. The first claim you made. So please provide this, and please make sure that what you provide has not already been debunked.

I will do in due course. De Wesselow presented both sides of the argument. If the question has already been settled, why was the Pope seen on tv a few days ago revering it, and more to the point, why is this thread still open?
 
You are assuming you are better informed than me and that I am uninformed, yet you haven't actually debated why. Should we all just accept that your assertion is true, without question? From here, it looks like brinkmanship.

Do you know what the word brinksmanship means?
 
You will have to ask the Pope that. My assumption...the credibility of the organization he heads partly depends on the belief among the people of its authenticity.

For a person so well versed and having read so much on it, you should know that the vatican makes no claim on the CIQ's authenticity and considers it an article of faith. They learned that lesson from th Galileo fiasco.
 
I will do in due course. De Wesselow presented both sides of the argument. If the question has already been settled, why was the Pope seen on tv a few days ago revering it, and more to the point, why is this thread still open?

The pope revered it, but he didn't declare it authentic.

There are various reasons people keep returning to this thread. Jabba has said he hopes to convince the lurkers. I want to see how this all ends, and because I learned a lot from reading this thread. I had no opinion when I first started reading here. Jabba has convinced me that the shroud is NOT authentic.
 
Whilst the shroud might be relatively modern, it would be difficult to fake the image of a crucified man. Whether that man is Jesus, whom historians do accept existed, is yet another matter.


I don't agree with this. There are countless images of a crucified man in museums around the world, each to a varying degree of photo-realism. The shroud is not as realistic as some, due to the errors in proportion.
 
I will do in due course.

The proper term is "I'll be back" or "I'll present my evidence in my next post." If you took my advice and read the previous thread, you would not have made such a word-usage error.
 
You are assuming you are better informed than me and that I am uninformed, yet you haven't actually debated why. Should we all just accept that your assertion is true, without question? From here, it looks like brinkmanship.

I've read the thread. From the beginning.
 
I will do in due course. De Wesselow presented both sides of the argument. If the question has already been settled, why was the Pope seen on tv a few days ago revering it, and more to the point, why is this thread still open?

Actually, he wasn't. You should check what his carefully worded statement actually was.
 
I will do in due course. De Wesselow presented both sides of the argument. If the question has already been settled, why was the Pope seen on tv a few days ago revering it, and more to the point, why is this thread still open?

Because as a pope he is as much a politician as needed to be as the head of catholics, many of whom hold the shroud to be a holy relic.

The question has been settled from the physic point of view. In a way the shroud was even more tested than most artifact, more under scrutinity than your average middle age cheesecloth.

But the religious question ? it will never be settled. If Christianity cannot settle for big stuff like virgin Mary and saint (catholic vs protestant) why do you think they would use science to settle on such trifling as the shroud ? No, believer will believe in spite of science, jsut like many American disbelieve the theory of natural selection in spite of the science.

Despite what some in this thread using statistical artifacts, from the science POV, the shroud is definitively (as definitive can 3 carbon dating together give a date) from a set period after the 13th to 14th century CE.

ETA: the thread is still open not because the question is open, but mostly because one of the shroud believer , JABBA, would rather never ever admit non authenticity even when rubbed in his face coming up with a variety of utterly irrelevant argument -invisible patching (firstly shroud was checked and invisible patching is not invisible in the strict sense, secondly it uses fiber from another part of the cloth => does not change dating. Presence or absence of blood => does not change dating , presentation of the image of a crucified person => does not change dating, crucifiction picture abound etc...etc...) but rather than admit any of this , he walls up.

Some people like to watch the train wreck, some try to help him educate him, some just are here to make sure the lurker understand how wrong jabba is, some just want to learn from other.

The end result is this never ending thread.

but make no mistake. It is not ending because there is doubt on the carbon dating. it is never ending because believer refuse out of belief to accept ANY scientific result disputing the authenticity, they simply cannot accept it. I can't read their thought but I assume they think that if the shroud is not authentic, it throw a shadow onto other stuff and give them doubt.

Whatever.

13th to 14th century.
 
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