South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Ladewig]

To be honest, I'm not sure what ATOL's position is.

The way I read his posts, it seems like it is about taking the flag down generally, not that specific flag in South Carolina, but he'll have to speak for himself on that.

There have been a few others who seem generally supportive of the flag, but who haven't chimed in on the specific flag at the South Carolina Confederate war memorial in front of the statehouse. It may be that, if asked directly, they would support that flag, too.

However, my point is that the current anti-flag activity among activists isn't limited to that particular flag. I got involved heavily in this thread starting at post 399, talking about the removal of flag related materials at Civil War gift shops. Most of the subsequent discussion has not been about the South Carolina statehouse flag, but about the confederate flag(s) in general. If the controversy had been limited to the statehouse flag, I would have thought it a not all that important issue but, in principle, I would say that state governments ought not to be endorsing the confederate flag in that manner. Instead, it has grown into a crusade, and gotten, in my opinion, rather silly. We've seen the removal of keychains, and an example of some people protesting against a 100 year old marble monument. Yesterday I read of state legislator telling people not to attend a fireworks display at Stone Mountain because they flew the Confederate flag. Those sorts of crusades make me nervous.

I can see both sides of the monument debate, although I lean against displaying it; if the Germans can honor their war dead without a swastika, I think the South can honor its war dead without a Confederate flag. But as I say, I am not willing to fall on my sword for this issue. And I am not willing to demonize folks on the other side of this one narrow aspect of the the issue.

I think the retailers dropping it is neither silly nor noble; it is just a business decision.

I really don't think taking "Dukes of Hazzard" off the air really accomplished much.

 

[Craig B]

My point is this People are Whining about something so stupid. The fact is we can take anything that has a shady past behind it and people can attach hate to it. That is my point. I like to focus my on points on Religion Items because People normally do not look at them with hate. But they do have a dark history to them. But it could be their Religion belief is to forgive and forget that helps.

If religious symbols are removed from the Public display of the State, that should be done even for admirable ones representing forgiveness and other good things, because the State should keep itself apart from any religious denomination.

However, the Confederate battle flag represents an ideology of slavery and racism which should be positively rejected and repudiated by S Carolina. These things have already done more than enough damage there. The flag represents things that will not be forgiven, and must not be forgotten.

 

[jimbob]

Well, I will agree that the Democrats started this particular race war.

In 1861.

Well played, sir.

My point is this People are Whining about something so stupid. The fact is we can take anything that has a shady past behind it and people can attach hate to it. That is my point. I like to focus my on points on Religion Items because People normally do not look at them with hate. But they do have a dark history to them. But it could be their Religion belief is to forgive and forget that helps.

If religious symbols are removed from the Public display of the State, that should be done even for admirable ones representing forgiveness and other good things, because the State should keep itself apart from any religious denomination.

However, the Confederate battle flag represents an ideology of slavery and racism which should be positively rejected and repudiated by S Carolina. These things have already done more than enough damage there. The flag represents things that will not be forgiven, and must not be forgotten.

Yes, and the argument is whether it is appropriate for the flag that about three quarters of the black population (with good reason) regard as a symbol of oppression to be flying on state property with the implied official approval of that flag's meanings.

It is different for private individuals. Which is not the scope of this discussion.

ETA: This flag has a shady past in the same way that the SS flashes with swastikas have a shady past. Just because some biker gangs use it, it doesn't mean it doesn't symbolise racial hate.

 

[Mumbles]

My point is this People are Whining about something so stupid. The fact is we can take anything that has a shady past behind it and people can attach hate to it. That is my point. I like to focus my on points on Religion Items because People normally do not look at them with hate. But they do have a dark history to them. But it could be their Religion belief is to forgive and forget that helps.

There's no "shady past" here. That flag is a symbol of white supremacy, clear as day.

 

[Craig B]

This flag has a shady past in the same way that the SS flashes with swastikas have a shady past. Just because some biker gangs use it, it doesn't mean it doesn't symbolise racial hate.

You mean biker gangs are invariably innocent of racial hate?

 

[jimbob]

I was very careful in what I wrote there Craig...

And I was deliberately ambiguous with the pronouns too.

 

[Meadmaker]

I like to focus my on points on Religion Items because People normally do not look at them with hate. But they do have a dark history to them.

Welcome to the forum. Now I understand why I missed your point. What you say about religious items is true in society in general. Around here, religious items tend to be viewed as even worse than confederate flags.

But your point is pretty accurate. Some people view the cross as a sign of love. Others as a sign of hate.

 

[Ladewig]

My point is this People are Whining about something so stupid.

Really? Black people complaining about a symbol of slavery and segregation are whining?

The image was created to be a symbol of the fight to own slaves.

.....................
But more importantly

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

Except we are not creating a "not-so-free country" because no one has lost any freedom. Everyone still has the freedom to purchase and to fly a Confederate flag.

Furthermore, The right to protest things in the U.S. existed long before the Confederate flag was flown. Absolutely nothing in the past several weeks has strengthened, weakened, or in any way changed the American right to protest. To espouse otherwise, as you do, is nonsense.

 

[dudalb]

I was responding to ATOL. As far as I can tell, ATOL is upset it came down from the statehouse.

And he is probably still upset about Appomatox.....

 

[SezMe]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

There is a monolithic "left media" that has a uniform policy toward blacks? I didn't know that. Maybe you can give some examples of the media you are talking about. Also, please explain what benefits accrue to the left media by starting a race war.

Also, you need to get your English right. I think you mean "The left media couldn't care less ...."

 

[pgwenthold]

I love how folks complain about "starting a race war."

As if holding black people in slavery was not a race war.

And KKK lynchings we're not a race war.

And Jim Crow laws and other forms of continued segregating we're not a race war.

No, it's always been a race war. The key was that whites were always winning.

 

[Mumbles]

I love how folks complain about "starting a race war."

As if holding black people in slavery was not a race war.

And KKK lynchings we're not a race war.

And Jim Crow laws and other forms of continued segregating we're not a race war.

No, it's always been a race war. The key was that whites were always winning.

Remember what I said before.

The happy, childlike slaves picking cotton in the fields.

The "outside agitators" riling up the previously happy negroes.

Al Sharpton causing people to get angry

Barack Obama "dividing the races".

All myths. As I keep saying, one key part of racism is that it's old. And that's why I'm in favor of teaching a full history - once you know the patterns, it's not hard to see what's happening. The flag is a clear symbol of white supremacy, and as such has no place in modern state flags, or flying on state Capitol grounds.

Take it down.

 

[pgwenthold]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

The difference is that the cross actually has meaning and virtue outside of the way it was used in WW2. There is much more to a cross than WW2.

In contrast, the Confederacy has no redeeming qualities. This was a country that was created for the sole purpose of institutionalizing the slavery of black people. That is clear in the articles of secession of the states involved, and in the country's constitution, where the only substantial difference with the constitution of the US is that it explicitly includes slavery as part of the country. That is it. That is the "heritage" of the confederacy. It existed solely in opposition to the United States, and had no other identity except as an enemy of the US.

There's no getting around that. That is what the confederacy was all about. There was nothing more.

 

[Atol]

My point is Black and White are Targeting the wrong thing to focus their anger. What needs to be done is stop with the flag and work to make laws to block race related Hate groups from making websites. Which Teens and children can view. At least that will be worth While effort. But sadly all their efforts is on a flag.

 

[bit_pattern]

I love how folks complain about "starting a race war."

As if holding black people in slavery was not a race war.

And KKK lynchings we're not a race war.

And Jim Crow laws and other forms of continued segregating we're not a race war.

No, it's always been a race war. The key was that whites were always winning.

It's like the class war in that respect...

 

[Meadmaker]

My point is Black and White are Targeting the wrong thing to focus their anger. What needs to be done is stop with the flag and work to make laws to block race related Hate groups from making websites. Which Teens and children can view. At least that will be worth While effort. But sadly all their efforts is on a flag.

I think that is because doing what you suggest would be blatantly and obviously unconstitutional.

 

[Ladewig]

My point is Black and White are Targeting the wrong thing to focus their anger. What needs to be done is stop with the flag and work to make laws to block race related Hate groups from making websites. Which Teens and children can view. At least that will be worth While effort. But sadly all their efforts is on a flag.

As Meadmaker said, completely unconstitutional.

But even if you were to pursue that route, why not do that AND take down the flag. What is lost by taking down the flag at state property?

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

My point is Black and White are Targeting the wrong thing to focus their anger. What needs to be done is stop with the flag and work to make laws to block race related Hate groups from making websites. Which Teens and children can view. At least that will be worth While effort. But sadly all their efforts is on a flag.

Its ironic that you claim that taking down the flag would lead to a decrease in freedom of speech, whilst here explicitly calling for a reduction in freedom of speech.

 

[dudalb]

Remember what I said before.

The happy, childlike slaves picking cotton in the fields.

The "outside agitators" riling up the previously happy negroes.

Al Sharpton causing people to get angry

Barack Obama "dividing the races".

All myths. As I keep saying, one key part of racism is that it's old. And that's why I'm in favor of teaching a full history - once you know the patterns, it's not hard to see what's happening. The flag is a clear symbol of white supremacy, and as such has no place in modern state flags, or flying on state Capitol grounds.

Take it down.

I agree except for Al Sharpton,who I consider to be a liar and and a demagogue.

 

[dudalb]

And indeed, the burning cross has become a distasteful symbol of a racist ideology.

Which is why since the 1930's the Scottish Highland Games festivals in the US have not burned a cross at the closing ceremonies...yes, it is indeed a old Scottish symbol of loyalty to the Clan that the KKK swiped,but the Scottish Americans groups considered it to be too corrupted by the KKK to be used.

A number of those popular (and,IMHO, God Awful) Scottish Historical Romances have described the original use of the Burning Cross,and this created a proposal for Scottish American groups to "reclaim" the symbol but it has been solidly voted down as an impossible task.

Ironically enough, there is NO evidence that the Klan during Reconstruction ever used the fiery cross as a symbol. All the evidence is that it only came in with the Klan Revival of 1920,inspired by "The Birth Of A Nation". The author of the novel that DW Griffith based his film on apparently created the Burning Cross as a KKK emblem out of whole cloth.