South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Mumbles]

Next week I launch Operation Ageless. Me and my minions will attempt to kill every child with cancer in the entire nation through torture. We'll have a flag and everything. I'm sure one day they'll sing songs about our defeat and the relatives of my minions will gather to have our flag featuring a wheelchair bound girl being burned alive hoisted above schoolhouses and state capitols.

...here's the thing.

People have this tendency to discuss "the South" as some sort of cohesive political entity. And that simply is not true.

And I'm not discussing those white farmers who wanted to remain in the Union, although they certainly existed, much like many people who lived in Union states wished to join the Confederacy. But rather, I'm considering the actual slaves, who in some states were an outright majority of the population. They were, after all, also southerners.

Yes, this song is fine. But we also have Memorial Day, and Juneteenth.

 

[marplots]

No the hallmark of a free country , is to recognize that the freedom is not at the middle of the road where the mob is, but at the edge of the road where minorities and people not having the majorities taste and culture are.

That is why a good free country, will have not only democratic laws, but also a constitutional court of sort which will make sure the freedom of minorities are respected and everybody is treated equally before the law.

Otherwise all you got is the rule of the mob.

Good enough. By that token, I must then set aside my feelings in favor of the feelings of those whose ancestors were enslaved by mine. For certainly, African Americans would be the relevant minority here with the highest claim.

 

[marplots]

...but white supremacists who wished to threaten black families did exactly this, with the burning cross. It's quite likely that they, for the most part, had no clue as to the full history of such a symbol.

And indeed, the burning cross has become a distasteful symbol of a racist ideology.

 

[Craig B]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

I don't think that's reasonable; and I don't think Pius XII has been accused of that. What he is plausibly accused of is doing little ir nothing to prevent, or even publicly protest about, the Holocaust.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I don't know of any Jews protesting at Christians displaying crosses as such, in a personal capacity. And Christianity is not only about the Holocaust.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

It's interesting that you should say that. The Confederate battle flag is in fact only about the war to preserve slavery - nothing else. Therefore it should not be displayed by the State in public places. If individuals want to display it, they may continue to do so. How is that an infringement of anyone's freedom?

One could even argue that the Cross, or other specific religious symbols, should not be displayed by the State, as particular religions are not and ought not to be promoted by the State. Does this infringe anyone's religious freedom? Does the disestablishment of the Church in the USA impede the right of US citizens to practice their religion? I would say no.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Next week I launch Operation Ageless. Me and my minions will attempt to kill every child with cancer in the entire nation through torture. We'll have a flag and everything. I'm sure one day they'll sing songs about our defeat and the relatives of my minions will gather to have our flag featuring a wheelchair bound girl being burned alive hoisted above schoolhouses and state capitols.

Sorry, but this post and others just remind me of an often unfortunate trend to threads in this forum.

Early on, you have different people expressing different opinions on a topic, and as such, the thread is worthwhile to see how others may view a topic differently from one's own take. Maybe even make one reconsider one's position, or see another point of view in a new light. Great so far.

But then the thread descends into a polarized, snarky, condescending and often quite ridiculous back and forth. There ceases to be any point to continued discourse at that point - at least for me.

But have fun, guys!

 

[jimbob]

How about replacing the flag with a noose? It represents the South and has similar connotations to many of the people there. I'm pretty sure Dylan Roof meant the Confederate flag in that way.

 

[spooky24]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

 

[Craig B]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

So if you want to care about blacks and stop race war - join KKK.

 

[Ladewig]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

You do understand that we are talking about taking the the flag down from state-owned property, right? If there is a cross on the state Capitol, I want it taken down.

..........

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

When you say race war, do you mean simply sow discord and discontent between different races or do you mean a shooting war with people killing people of different races?

 

[Darat]

Balderdash. Watson did not propose hopping in the DeLorean and traveling back to the 70s to repaint the car. Changing the paint job in the present only makes a statement in the present.

...snip...

The car still exists, its "cultural value" is in its link to a TV show, altering it does not remove that link but covers up what one of the links was about and I think removes relevant cultural history.

 

[Darat]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

Hang on - the murderer was a member of the "left media"?

 

[The Greater Fool]

I hate to say this if people are complaining about the Confederate flag then they should also complain the Bible that endorsed Slavery. Because the bible and the Cross help enforced Slave laws at the time.

Should the Confederate flag be taken down. No. Because there are other items that can be view as hate. We can look at pictures of KKK holding a American Flag and Burning Crosses. In WW2 the Vatican & Pope supported Hitler and his sick Views at the time. So should that Religion be Ban or not Endorsed?

My point is any Symbol or location can be View as hate.

Well what about the Cross The Ten Commandments and such which are all related to the bible.

My main point is this. If people hate the flag because of the past. They should also hate something that help make it possible.

Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state.

How ironic that the Oklahoma Supreme Court just days ago, said that the Ten Commandements monument must come down?

Do you really hate to say it?

Unlike the Rebel Battle flag, which was the symbol of a treasonous war, for the expressed purpose of maintaining slavery...
...the bible, as far was we know, was not created to enforce or maintain slavery*;
...the cross is not a symbol for the sole purpose of creating and/or maintaining slavery;

Using the logic of this particular argument, then we should eliminate all laws because there were laws enforcing and endorsing slavery.


Wrong. Yes.



KKK holding the flag so we should eliminate the flag? They wore white sheets, so we should do away with the color white? And sheets?

KKK burned crosses. So we should ban fire?


Vatican & Pope supported Hitler, so we should get rid of religion? I could get behind that one. The pope wore robes while he was supporting Hitler, so let's ban robes. Pope was Italian, so we should ban Italians. Of course, the Axis supported Hitler, so Italians, Germans, Austrians should be banned. Hitler liked dogs, so we should ban dogs.


This is a fair point, but doesn't support your painfully stretched comparisons.

To make it clear why the SCA battle flag is different than any other symbol you mentioned: The SCA itself was a treasonous action against the USA, for the express purpose of maintaining and expanding slavery. The battle flag flew above the armies of the SCA. None of the other symbols come anywhere close.


* While the bible was not created for slavery, to support slavery, it seems apparent that it was created to keep people in there subservient places.

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

But isn't doing what the people want kind of the hallmark of a free country?

You do understand that we are talking about taking the the flag down from state-owned property, right? If there is a cross on the state Capitol, I want it taken down.

ATOL This is a discussion board. Rather than making the same tired points, try reading and learning. Courteously yours, TGF

 

[Meadmaker]

You do understand that we are talking about taking the the flag down from state-owned property, right? If there is a cross on the state Capitol, I want it taken down.

That's not what we are talking about. If that's what we were talking about, we would be in 100% complete agreement. Not one person in this entire thread has said that the flag ought to fly at the South Carolina statehouse.

 

[Ladewig]

That's not what we are talking about. If that's what we were talking about, we would be in 100% complete agreement. Not one person in this entire thread has said that the flag ought to fly at the South Carolina statehouse.

I was responding to ATOL. As far as I can tell, ATOL is upset it came down from the statehouse.

 

[Travis]

Sorry, but this post and others just remind me of an often unfortunate trend to threads in this forum.

Early on, you have different people expressing different opinions on a topic, and as such, the thread is worthwhile to see how others may view a topic differently from one's own take. Maybe even make one reconsider one's position, or see another point of view in a new light. Great so far.

But then the thread descends into a polarized, snarky, condescending and often quite ridiculous back and forth. There ceases to be any point to continued discourse at that point - at least for me.

But have fun, guys!

It's what I'm here for. Glad I could help.

 

[Meadmaker]

I was responding to ATOL. As far as I can tell, ATOL is upset it came down from the statehouse.

To be honest, I'm not sure what ATOL's position is.

The way I read his posts, it seems like it is about taking the flag down generally, not that specific flag in South Carolina, but he'll have to speak for himself on that.

There have been a few others who seem generally supportive of the flag, but who haven't chimed in on the specific flag at the South Carolina Confederate war memorial in front of the statehouse. It may be that, if asked directly, they would support that flag, too.

However, my point is that the current anti-flag activity among activists isn't limited to that particular flag. I got involved heavily in this thread starting at post 399, talking about the removal of flag related materials at Civil War gift shops. Most of the subsequent discussion has not been about the South Carolina statehouse flag, but about the confederate flag(s) in general. If the controversy had been limited to the statehouse flag, I would have thought it a not all that important issue but, in principle, I would say that state governments ought not to be endorsing the confederate flag in that manner. Instead, it has grown into a crusade, and gotten, in my opinion, rather silly. We've seen the removal of keychains, and an example of some people protesting against a 100 year old marble monument. Yesterday I read of state legislator telling people not to attend a fireworks display at Stone Mountain because they flew the Confederate flag. Those sorts of crusades make me nervous.

 

[Mumbles]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

"Start"?

We've been fighting.

 

[DavidJames]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war.

Whatever makes you feel better but keep in mind. The terrorist who killed the 9 people specifically said he wanted to start a race war. But of course, it's the media who report it are the real ones who want to start a race war.

Just wow.

 

[Cleon]

The left media could care less about blacks in their quest to start a race war. Just another example of that effort.

Well, I will agree that the Democrats started this particular race war.

In 1861.

 

[Atol]

My point is this People are Whining about something so stupid. The fact is we can take anything that has a shady past behind it and people can attach hate to it. That is my point. I like to focus my on points on Religion Items because People normally do not look at them with hate. But they do have a dark history to them. But it could be their Religion belief is to forgive and forget that helps.