South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[slyjoe]

..snip

One other element that has come up is the people who are saying the flag represents "heritage, not hate". Some people, specifically including Upchurch, have denounced that position. I believe that people who do so would say that the heritage of that flag IS hate, so the position makes no sense. I don't disagree with that reasoning, but I think it misses an important point. When someone defends the flag by saying "heritage, not hate", what you have is a Confederate flag waver who is denouncing racism. That's a win. You should see it that way.

Why shouldn't we see it as a rationalization? Why is it a win?

 

[paulhutch]

Another aspect of my argument is that when the sale of a product is restricted by private parties for fear of economic reprisal, then freedom of expression has been restricted.

While true, it is one groups freedom of expression that is restricting another groups freedom of expression. So there is no practical solution that does not involve government restricting some groups freedom of expression. To me that would be a very much worse situation than what exists now.

 

[Meadmaker]

Why shouldn't we see it as a rationalization? Why is it a win?

Any denunciation of racism is a win, isn't it?

But this one is even better. There are some Confederate flag wavers who might deny racism, but everyone knows that a lot of them are lying. In the case of "heritage, not hate", what you have is a specific, public, labeling, "racism=hate". That's a big step up for a guy expressing Southern pride.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Another aspect of my argument is that when the sale of a product is restricted by private parties for fear of economic reprisal, then freedom of expression has been restricted. The Libertarian Party would disagree. Only government can restrict free expression, according to the Libertarian philosophy. I disagree with them.

.

You have it backwards. Libertarians think that government should never restrict speech and that the free market will do its part to censure bad speech. On this I agree with them.

Freedom of speech only limits the government from censoring people. Fear of economic reprisal is not a constitutional concept.

 

[Craig B]

You have it backwards. Libertarians think that government should never restrict speech and that the free market will do its part to censure bad speech. On this I agree with them.

Explain that to us please.

 

[Checkmite]

I don't, the reason being that in effect changes history.

Balderdash. Watson did not propose hopping in the DeLorean and traveling back to the 70s to repaint the car. Changing the paint job in the present only makes a statement in the present.



Tearing down the Berlin Wall did not change the history of the Berlin Wall either.

 

[Checkmite]

Any denunciation of racism is a win, isn't it?





But this one is even better. There are some Confederate flag wavers who might deny racism, but everyone knows that a lot of them are lying. In the case of "heritage, not hate", what you have is a specific, public, labeling, "racism=hate".

This is nonsense. Racists have never been particularly reticent to allow that racism is a form of hate. Such a statement would be a step in no direction whatsoever.



What it actually is, is simply a denial that the Confederacy was grounded in racism.

 

[Aepervius]

One other element that has come up is the people who are saying the flag represents "heritage, not hate". Some people, specifically including Upchurch, have denounced that position. I believe that people who do so would say that the heritage of that flag IS hate, so the position makes no sense. I don't disagree with that reasoning, but I think it misses an important point. When someone defends the flag by saying "heritage, not hate", what you have is a Confederate flag waver who is denouncing racism. That's a win. You should see it that way.

Not really. It is on the same level as "i have a black friend". They are not denouncing racism. They are trying to justify their usage of a symbol of the slavery,and used as rallyment symbol of hate during segregation time. "see I am not a racist , I am using it only to remember my proud heritage". As if there was no other absolutely no other symbol for that, and as if it had been consistently used like that (not really). Some MIGHT think it is really about heritage, but the truth is that the biggest visual heritage of that flag, is slavery.

 

[Mumbles]

One other element that has come up is the people who are saying the flag represents "heritage, not hate". Some people, specifically including Upchurch, have denounced that position. I believe that people who do so would say that the heritage of that flag IS hate, so the position makes no sense. I don't disagree with that reasoning, but I think it misses an important point. When someone defends the flag by saying "heritage, not hate", what you have is a Confederate flag waver who is denouncing racism. That's a win. You should see it that way.

No, getting that person to examine their beliefs is a win. Simply denouncing what they consider to be racism is most certainly not. There are plenty of people who will denounce racism one minute, do something outlandishly racist the next, and then scream in anger when told that what they just did was racist. "Heritage not Hate" is telling you that the person speaking is this.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Karen and I went to a country music festival in Kennesaw, GA, some weeks ago.

One high point was Ricky Scaggs doing a heartfelt rendition of "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".

Quite moving, and I don't see how reflecting on the heartbreak of the South's defeat to those who endured the struggle is necessarily racist.

I assume most know the song?

http://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

 

[DavidJames]

Karen and I went to a country music festival in Kennesaw, GA, some weeks ago.

One high point was Ricky Scaggs doing a heartfelt rendition of "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".

Quite moving, and I don't see how reflecting on the heartbreak of the South's defeat to those who endured the struggle is necessarily racist.

I assume most know the song?

http://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

Keep trying, maybe you'll convince someone. Unless of course you run out of straw.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Keep trying, maybe you'll convince someone. Unless of course you run out of straw.

Sorry, you lost me.

No straw.

No need to convince.

Just attempting to put forth a point of view.

Unsuccessfully, it appears.

 

[Mumbles]

This is nonsense. Racists have never been particularly reticent to allow that racism is a form of hate. Such a statement would be a step in no direction whatsoever.

What it actually is, is simply a denial that the Confederacy was grounded in racism.

Part of the problem is, it's not a symbol of hate, in the conventional sense of the word "hate". That way leads to racism as people who spew "the N-word" and burn crosses - History as told in Django Unchained. White supremacy is Donald Trump stating that he has "a great relationship with the blacks", while belittling the intelligence and citizenship of the first Black president. It's the "outside agitator" coming in to rile the good, happy local negroes. It's the happy, carefree, childlike slave. A lot of people say that Rush Limbaugh is happy to have a black guy as his sidekick.

They never seem to know if he would be happy being the sidekick for a black guy, though.

 

[Atol]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

 

[marplots]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

But isn't doing what the people want kind of the hallmark of a free country?

 

[Aepervius]

Karen and I went to a country music festival in Kennesaw, GA, some weeks ago.

One high point was Ricky Scaggs doing a heartfelt rendition of "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".

Quite moving, and I don't see how reflecting on the heartbreak of the South's defeat to those who endured the struggle is necessarily racist.

I assume most know the song?

http://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

Sure. Now replace the lyrics with good old german "Die Nacht der Niedergang der Flagge". It will quite a heartbreaking song about the german losing WW2 for example. Heartbreaking.

You can make heartbreaking song out of anything. The problem is, you are still crying about losing as bunch of slavery secessionist which upheld segregation for hundred years afterward.

 

[Travis]

Karen and I went to a country music festival in Kennesaw, GA, some weeks ago.

One high point was Ricky Scaggs doing a heartfelt rendition of "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".

Quite moving, and I don't see how reflecting on the heartbreak of the South's defeat to those who endured the struggle is necessarily racist.

I assume most know the song?

http://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

Next week I launch Operation Ageless. Me and my minions will attempt to kill every child with cancer in the entire nation through torture. We'll have a flag and everything. I'm sure one day they'll sing songs about our defeat and the relatives of my minions will gather to have our flag featuring a wheelchair bound girl being burned alive hoisted above schoolhouses and state capitols.

 

[Aepervius]

But isn't doing what the people want kind of the hallmark of a free country?

No the hallmark of a free country , is to recognize that the freedom is not at the middle of the road where the mob is, but at the edge of the road where minorities and people not having the majorities taste and culture are.

That is why a good free country, will have not only democratic laws, but also a constitutional court of sort which will make sure the freedom of minorities are respected and everybody is treated equally before the law.

Otherwise all you got is the rule of the mob.

 

[Travis]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

They will have to hoist my flag of a little girl being burned alive or else it isn't a free country? Awesome!

 

[Mumbles]

You know we can take the Cross and view it as a symbol of hate. We can take WW2 Germany and Vatican City. The Pope at the time supported Germany in extermination of the Jews.

...but white supremacists who wished to threaten black families did exactly this, with the burning cross. It's quite likely that they, for the most part, had no clue as to the full history of such a symbol.

We can take the families of Jewish people who died in the holocaust. sons or daughters who live might look at the Cross as a Sign of hate. But should the Jewish people Protest about the Cross? Because it could offends them? Because of what happen in WW2.

Well, I'd argue that a crucifix placed on state capitol grounds would, in most circumstances, be inappropriate. A crucifix as a part of jewelry, or in a church, or on a tombstone, is fine.

See how that works?

I am looking at if this way. If they Take down the Confederate flag. It going to give rights to people to protest other things that could be taken down. It going to end up making this country into a not so free country.

And it's simply improper for the state itself to protest many things. Such as integration.

Dukes of Hazzard has nothing to do with this.

Take it down.