SezMe
post-pre-born
I see Upchurch arguing general concepts and facts and you arguing your own personal perspective. That's ok as far as it goes, namely just you, but otherwise Upchurch is wiping the floor with you.
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South Carolina, tear down that flag!
- Thread starter Alferd_Packer
- Start date
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
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- Dec 27, 2006
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- 9,778
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2007
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I hate those things too. Do I get a cookie?
TV Land doesn't have the right to not show a program?
I see the flag flown around here too. Basically anyone, anywhere who thinks the blacks either need to die or be put back in chains will buy one and fly it around so people can identify them.
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
I guess if at least a couple people missed my point, it must have been poorly made.
I was responding to: "Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state."
I took the "this" in the above quote to be this discussion. And this discussion has been about far more than "what is displayed by the state".
I was responding to: "Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state."
I took the "this" in the above quote to be this discussion. And this discussion has been about far more than "what is displayed by the state".
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 35,088
Southern racists do migrate north sometimes.
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
Yeeeeah, about that...a dozen yokels appointing themselves to imaginary offices does not a state government make, no matter how many stars the Confederates wanted to put on their flag.
Although these "shadow governments" do make for interesting microcosms of the Confederate mindset. Overruled by the majority? Just declare the majority's elected government invalid and start your own new "rightful" government.
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Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Or you could just handle it like Texas did and send secessionist thug gunslingers to the town meetings to ratify the articles of secession. (And hunt down and kill the unionists afterwards. The history of Texas in the Civil War is not one of honor and glory.)
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
"The history of Texas in the Civil War is not one of honor and glory."
From my limited reading on the US civil war I would simply say:
"The history of the US Civil War is not one of honor and glory."
(ETA: or replace US with "any")
From my limited reading on the US civil war I would simply say:
"The history of the US Civil War is not one of honor and glory."
(ETA: or replace US with "any")
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
I'll be honest: I'm now even less sure what your point is.
If you aren't trying to make a point about the (common misconception of) freedom of speech, what point are you trying to make?
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Yeeeeah, about that...a dozen yokels appointing themselves to imaginary offices does not a state government make, no matter how many stars the Confederates wanted to put on their flag.
Although these "shadow governments" do make for interesting microcosms of the Confederate mindset. Overruled by the majority? Just declare the majority's elected government invalid and start your own new "rightful" government.
You could make the same argument about the Confederacy in general. It doesn't mean that Missouri and Kentucky weren't split or claimed by both sides.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Messages
- 21,829
Great interview on npr, mentions Kentucky.
http://www.npr.org/2015/07/02/41955...g-exposes-larger-truths-about-the-confederacy
3/4 of the state fought for the union. There were counties where more than 90% fought for the union but have confederate monuments.
Heritage?
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
People can be stupid. What can I say?
I don't, the reason being that in effect changes history. And that programme and that car are quite a historic statement. It would be better (for example ) if say a kid seeing it asks why is there a racist flag on that car, it can then be explained the history of the racism and how it was ingrained in popular culture.
surrogate
Muse
Not to mention how silly it will be to call the car The General Lee with a union flag on it, unless he plans on renaming it The General Grant.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
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- 21,829
The car played the General Lee in the show. It is not the General Lee in real life.
Who the heck names their car, anyway? Even the batmobile was just the car for batman.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Well, the history hasn't changed. The show, with the original paint job on the car(s), still exists and can be seen. History doesn't mean that objects are frozen in time.
That being said, I agree with you that I wish it would be preserved in its original paint job. It can always be restored, as I'm sure it probably has been in the past.
surrogate
Muse
I was pretty sure General Lee the person didn't morph in an automobile, but thanks for confirming
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
I was pretty sure General Lee the person didn't morph in an automobile, but thanks for confirming
I'll just leave this here
Meadmaker
Unregistered
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- Apr 27, 2004
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- 29,033
Yeeeeah, about that...a dozen yokels appointing themselves to imaginary offices does not a state government make, no matter how many stars the Confederates wanted to put on their flag.
Although these "shadow governments" do make for interesting microcosms of the Confederate mindset. Overruled by the majority? Just declare the majority's elected government invalid and start your own new "rightful" government.
In the case of Missouri, the shadow government was headed by the elected governor. It certainly wasn't "a dozen yokels". If the Confederate army had had more success in the west, the pro-Union faction might have been the shadow government.
Every state was divided, the border states the most.
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Meadmaker
Unregistered
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- 29,033
To the extent that's true, it's because he is arguing against a straw man.
Is the flag a symbol of racism? Of course it is, to an awful lot of people, including supporters and detractors of the flag. There's no argument there, so any attempt to argue against that is just arguing against a straw man.
So, now, restate an argument without reference to that position, and we'll see if the argument makes any sense.
My argument is that it is, among other things, an historical symbol. It is appropriate to sell it in a place that commemorates the history associated with that symbol.
Another aspect of my argument is that when the sale of a product is restricted by private parties for fear of economic reprisal, then freedom of expression has been restricted. The Libertarian Party would disagree. Only government can restrict free expression, according to the Libertarian philosophy. I disagree with them.
One other element that has come up is the people who are saying the flag represents "heritage, not hate". Some people, specifically including Upchurch, have denounced that position. I believe that people who do so would say that the heritage of that flag IS hate, so the position makes no sense. I don't disagree with that reasoning, but I think it misses an important point. When someone defends the flag by saying "heritage, not hate", what you have is a Confederate flag waver who is denouncing racism. That's a win. You should see it that way.