South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Upchurch]

You need more?

Why?

Actually, I think you are the one who needs more. You are the one claiming that it's about heritage, not hate. However, the heritage in question was 100% about racism as evidenced by both the Confederacy and the segregation era. And racism, at its root, is about hatred and fear.

So, yes, if you want the claim to be valid, you need more because otherwise it is about heritage and hate.

 

[jimbob]

Wasn't really the kind of show that appealed to me as a kid apart from some of the eye candy. Curiously I don't recall many non white folk on the show, is that just my faulty recollection?

The corrupt Sheriff's dim sidekick and deputy was black, IIRC. Which strikes me as somewhat ironic

 

[Meadmaker]

I think I might have some issues with the survey as well, but I am surprised that you are surprised that people cannot list civil war battles. There are large swaths of American who know very little about American history.

If you ask people in 49 states who General Sherman was, it wouldn't surprise me at all that lots and lots of them don't know.

They asked 522 Georgians.

I'm sure there are Americans who don't know who Henry Ford was, but they don't live in Michigan.

As for Civil War Battles, I'm sure a lot of Americans would get Gettysburg and draw a blank after that. Of course, anyone over 50 has probably seen "Gone with the Wind", and ought to be able to come up with Atlanta. In the state of Georgia, though, I'm guessing that even people who have never watched the movie could come up with Atlanta. If not, maybe they might have heard of one of the 28 other battles Wikipedia lists as having been fought inside the state of Georgia.

Either the questions were worded in an incredibly deceptive manner, or people deliberately left them blank, or there were very, very, few people who were represented in the statistics cited in the article.

 

[Trebuchet]

The General Lee isn't racing anymore either.

Dukes of Hazzard Star John Schneider Slams TV Land for Pulling Reruns Over Confederate Flag

Nothing to do with the loss of his residuals, of course. Nothing at all. No siree. Money has nothing to do with it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Actually, I think you are the one who needs more. You are the one claiming that it's about heritage, not hate. However, the heritage in question was 100% about racism as evidenced by both the Confederacy and the segregation era. And racism, at its root, is about hatred and fear.

So, yes, if you want the claim to be valid, you need more because otherwise it is about heritage and hate.

Think about what you are saying. You are saying that in order to prove it is just about ancestry for some people, I have to show that it's about more than just ancestry.



And let's be sure that you understand the actual claim. My actual claim is that that flag means different things to different people. I am claiming that among 300 million modern Americans, it is possible to find at least two different things symbolized by that flag.

 

[Ladewig]

If you ask people in 49 states who General Sherman was, it wouldn't surprise me at all that lots and lots of them don't know.

They asked 522 Georgians.

I'm sure there are Americans who don't know who Henry Ford was, but they don't live in Michigan.

As for Civil War Battles, I'm sure a lot of Americans would get Gettysburg and draw a blank after that. Of course, anyone over 50 has probably seen "Gone with the Wind", and ought to be able to come up with Atlanta. In the state of Georgia, though, I'm guessing that even people who have never watched the movie could come up with Atlanta. If not, maybe they might have heard of one of the 28 other battles Wikipedia lists as having been fought inside the state of Georgia.

Either the questions were worded in an incredibly deceptive manner, or people deliberately left them blank, or there were very, very, few people who were represented in the statistics cited in the article.

I think you are grossly overestimating the knowledge of American adults. Whether it is local history, national history, or U.S. civics, there are very large numbers of Americans who really don't know very much.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

My actual claim is that that flag means different things to different people.

Take the Israeli flag.

To some, it represents the Jewish homeland promised by God and sanctuary.

To others, it represents oppression.

Symbolism will always be subjective.

 

[Upchurch]

Think about what you are saying. You are saying that in order to prove it is just about ancestry for some people, I have to show that it's about more than just ancestry.

No, I'm saying you have to show that it's about ancestry despite the hate. That is a hefty, if not impossible, task given how tightly woven racism is into the history of the south.

I am claiming that among 300 million modern Americans, it is possible to find at least two different things symbolized by that flag.

Oh, sure. It's possible. It's just not very likely that you'll find something symbolized by the Confederate flag that doesn't have its roots in the racist Confederacy. Certainly not segregation. Not the General Lee from the Dukes Of Hazard.

But, I'm game. You've made the positive claim. What's your evidence?

 

[Cainkane1]

If and when this flag is taken down it should be lowered with dignity and folded up. Then replace it with something else. No need to be showy.

 

[DavidJames]

Take the Israeli flag.

To some, it represents the Jewish homeland promised by God and sanctuary.

To others, it represents oppression.

Symbolism will always be subjective.

Not even close to what's under discussion. Unless you are saying the Israeli flag was originally adopted and flown as a flag representing oppression by those who flew the flag.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

You've made the positive claim. What's your evidence?

Why would not a CNN poll count as evidence of what people think the flag represents to them?

From earlier in this thread:

"The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education."

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Not even close to what's under discussion.

Part of what's under discussion is can any flag represent different things to different people.

A view expressed in this thread is that the Confederate flag can only mean one thing.

That, to me, is obviously not true.

 

[surrogate]

The corrupt Sheriff's dim sidekick and deputy was black, IIRC. Which strikes me as somewhat ironic

Neither Enos (Sonny Shroyer) nor Cletus (Rick Hurst) are black.

 

[Craig B]

Take the Israeli flag.

To some, it represents the Jewish homeland promised by God and sanctuary.

To others, it represents oppression.

Symbolism will always be subjective.

The promise by God is mythical. That may be subjective. But the oppression is real. The oppression of Jews to which Zionism is a response, and the oppression of Palestinians to which acts of violence against Israel are a response.

The different attitudes towards the symbol are determined by very real and not subjective factors. It's not like some people liking cheese, while others don't.

Although Zionism is a response to European antisemitism, its victims have not been these European antisemites. It is not the guilty, but the powerless, who have been made to suffer for the crimes.

 

[Walter Ego]

I think you are grossly overestimating the knowledge of American adults. Whether it is local history, national history, or U.S. civics, there are very large numbers of Americans who really don't know very much.

Agreed.

ETA:

People FAIL HORRIBLY At Answering The ‘EASIEST QUESTIONS’ About Independence Day

 

[Atol]

I hate to say this if people are complaining about the Confederate flag then they should also complain the Bible that endorsed Slavery. Because the bible and the Cross help enforced Slave laws at the time.

Should the Confederate flag be taken down. No. Because there are other items that can be view as hate. We can look at pictures of KKK holding a American Flag and Burning Crosses. In WW2 the Vatican & Pope supported Hitler and his sick Views at the time. So should that Religion be Ban or not Endorsed?

My point is any Symbol or location can be View as hate.

 

[Polaris]

I hate to say this if people are complaining about the Confederate flag then they should also complain the Bible that endorsed Slavery. Because the bible and the Cross help enforced Slave laws at the time.

Should the Confederate flag be taken down. No. Because there are other items that can be view as hate. We can look at pictures of KKK holding a American Flag and Burning Crosses. In WW2 the Vatican & Pope supported Hitler and his sick Views at the time. So should that Religion be Ban or not Endorsed?

My point is any Symbol or location can be View as hate.

Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state.

 

[Atol]

Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state.

Well what about the Cross The Ten Commandments and such which are all related to the bible.

My main point is this. If people hate the flag because of the past. They should also hate something that help make it possible.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

BP station in Ducktown, TN today:

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state.

It's gone quite beyond that.

Pulling "The Dukes of Hazzard", for instance.