South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[RandFan]

Defending freedom and heritage.

Another Black Church Burns in the South, the 8th in 10 Days

Why racists target black churches

 

[Ladewig]

Well what about the Cross The Ten Commandments and such which are all related to the bible.

How ironic that the Oklahoma Supreme Court just days ago, said that the Ten Commandements monument must come down?

 

[Yuchi1]

How ironic that the Oklahoma Supreme Court just days ago, said that the Ten Commandements monument must come down?

Their ruling said (in part) the Oklahoma case did not meet the same criteria as the 2003 SCOTUS ruling.

* http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

 

[Yuchi1]

But the Confederate Battle Flag is a particularly potent regional symbol of racial hatred, as it represents an entity that set itself apart for the express purpose of owing people on the basis of their race.

Really?

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Defacing-Confederate-memorial-unveils-a-lasting-1167207.php

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...&ei=FueWVZCzHobysAWOzRE&ved=0CBYQsAQ&tbm=isch

Isn't Seattle about as far as you can get from the Confederacy, in the continental US?

 

[jimbob]

Neither Enos (Sonny Shroyer) nor Cletus (Rick Hurst) are black.

Good thing I put the IIRC caveat there.

Thanks for the correction.

ETA: I have a very clear mental image that is obviously either completely wrong, or an amalgam of several characters.

 

[Checkmite]

According to CNN:

Many high-profile stars across multiple industries have spoken out against the use of the Confederate flag in recent weeks, and golfer Bubba Watson is the latest to get in on the act.

The two-time Masters champion, who owns one of the famous General Lee cars from the popular Dukes of Hazzard television show, revealed Thursday on Twitter that he intends to paint over the Confederate flag that adorns the car's roof

He tweeted that he'll be putting an American flag there instead. I approve.

 

[Upchurch]

Why would not a CNN poll count as evidence of what people think the flag represents to them?

From earlier in this thread:

"The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism..."

Yes, but "southern pride" in what?

 

[Upchurch]

Good thing the state is forbidden from endorsing the Bible. Because this is all about what is displayed by the state.

It's gone quite beyond that.

Pulling "The Dukes of Hazzard", for instance.

I didn't realize any one state controlled the TV Land network.

Alternatively, I didn't realize that TV Land did not also have freedom of speech.

 

[Upchurch]

Good thing I put the IIRC caveat there.

Thanks for the correction.

ETA: I have a very clear mental image that is obviously either completely wrong, or an amalgam of several characters.

Blazing Saddles, maybe?

 

[pgwenthold]

Yes, but "southern pride" in what?

Really, what do Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina actually in common other than they were part of the confederacy?

Oh, you could claim that they are "south of the Mason-Dixon line" but New Mexico is also in the southern part of the US but they don't get included in the "south." Why not? Because they weren't part of the confederacy, of course.

So it's not about location (south), it's about being part of the confederacy that brings those states under one flag. So what "south" are we referring to when it comes to the "southern pride"? The southern states who fought for the confederacy in the Civil War. That is "the south."

 

[The Greater Fool]

I hate to say this if people are complaining about the Confederate flag then they should also complain the Bible that endorsed Slavery. Because the bible and the Cross help enforced Slave laws at the time.

Do you really hate to say it?

Unlike the Rebel Battle flag, which was the symbol of a treasonous war, for the expressed purpose of maintaining slavery...
...the bible, as far was we know, was not created to enforce or maintain slavery*;
...the cross is not a symbol for the sole purpose of creating and/or maintaining slavery;

Using the logic of this particular argument, then we should eliminate all laws because there were laws enforcing and endorsing slavery.

Should the Confederate flag be taken down. No.

Wrong. Yes.

Because there are other items that can be view as hate. We can look at pictures of KKK holding a American Flag and Burning Crosses.

KKK holding the flag so we should eliminate the flag? They wore white sheets, so we should do away with the color white? And sheets?

KKK burned crosses. So we should ban fire?

In WW2 the Vatican & Pope supported Hitler and his sick Views at the time. So should that Religion be Ban or not Endorsed?

Vatican & Pope supported Hitler, so we should get rid of religion? I could get behind that one. The pope wore robes while he was supporting Hitler, so let's ban robes. Pope was Italian, so we should ban Italians. Of course, the Axis supported Hitler, so Italians, Germans, Austrians should be banned. Hitler liked dogs, so we should ban dogs.

My point is any Symbol or location can be View as hate.

This is a fair point, but doesn't support your painfully stretched comparisons.

To make it clear why the SCA battle flag is different than any other symbol you mentioned: The SCA itself was a treasonous action against the USA, for the express purpose of maintaining and expanding slavery. The battle flag flew above the armies of the SCA. None of the other symbols come anywhere close.


* While the bible was not created for slavery, to support slavery, it seems apparent that it was created to keep people in there subservient places.

 

[jimbob]

Blazing Saddles, maybe?

Maybe that was part of the amalgam, but the blacks in that were the bright ones. Especially the sheriff

Yes this scene



In case anyone isn't aware it does contain some NSFW language, but I don't find it offensive in that context.

 

[SezMe]

Their ruling said (in part) the Oklahoma case did not meet the same criteria as the 2003 SCOTUS ruling.

Yes, because the decision was base on the Oklahoma state constitution not the federal constitution. The OK constitution is MUCH more specific and restrictive than the First Amendment.

 

[SezMe]

If you ask people in 49 states who General Sherman was, it wouldn't surprise me at all that lots and lots of them don't know.

They asked 522 Georgians.

I'm sure there are Americans who don't know who Henry Ford was, but they don't live in Michigan.

As for Civil War Battles, I'm sure a lot of Americans would get Gettysburg and draw a blank after that. Of course, anyone over 50 has probably seen "Gone with the Wind", and ought to be able to come up with Atlanta. In the state of Georgia, though, I'm guessing that even people who have never watched the movie could come up with Atlanta. If not, maybe they might have heard of one of the 28 other battles Wikipedia lists as having been fought inside the state of Georgia.

Either the questions were worded in an incredibly deceptive manner, or people deliberately left them blank, or there were very, very, few people who were represented in the statistics cited in the article.

I wonder how many did not realize that the survey was using "Civil War" for the actual "War of Northern Aggression".

 

[Meadmaker]

Really, what do Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina actually in common other than they were part of the confederacy?

West Virginia?

 

[Checkmite]

Western Virginia, surely.

Actually, I've been surprised by how many people think Kentucky was a Confederate state. It wasn't, even though many people today think of it as a "southern" state. Missouri, too, often mistaken for Confederate.

 

[Upchurch]

Western Virginia, surely.

Actually, I've been surprised by how many people think Kentucky was a Confederate state. It wasn't, even though many people today think of it as a "southern" state. Missouri, too, often mistaken for Confederate.

Well, the thing is...

 

[Meadmaker]

Oh, sure. It's possible. It's just not very likely that you'll find something symbolized by the Confederate flag that doesn't have its roots in the racist Confederacy.

A Confederate flag that doesn't have its roots in the Confederacy. Yeah, that will be tough. It's almost as if you have defined the question in such a way that it cannot be answered.



I have slaveholding ancestors, one of whom fought for the Confederacy, alongside his brothers. I am neither proud nor ashamed of that fact, but I am somewhat inclined to visit the places where he fought (Wilson's Creek and Pea Ridge, at least.) I feel some sort of connection, even though, realistically, there is none. I just heard my grandmother tell the stories that she heard as a little girl from her grandfather.

I don't know why we associate ourselves with our distant forebears, but we do. I also don't own any Confederate flags, but if I did, it would just be in reference to my ancestors. Their cause was not noble, but they were just kids caught up in a storm. For me, that flag is about the army, and that army was just a bunch of young men trying to survive, or to bring personal honor, or to keep their buddies alive, just like every other army throughout history.

If I knew what flag he fought under, I could see getting a coffee cup with it. That's it. That's all it means. That's what the flag means to me. It's a conversation piece. A bit of historical trivia.

As mentioned earlier, I probably had an ancestor or two on the Union side, too, but we've never traced that family history. We just know that they lived in Illinois and were about the right age. Not worth putting it on a key chain.

 

[Meadmaker]

Western Virginia, surely.

Actually, I've been surprised by how many people think Kentucky was a Confederate state. It wasn't, even though many people today think of it as a "southern" state. Missouri, too, often mistaken for Confederate.

Kentucky and Missouri I think both had dual legislatures, each claiming to be the "legitimate" government. I'm pretty sure that both of them got stars on the Confederate flag, unlike Maryland or Delaware, which were slave states, but who never had a significant secessionist movement.

 

[Upchurch]

A Confederate flag that doesn't have its roots in the Confederacy. Yeah, that will be tough. It's almost as if you have defined the question in such a way that it cannot be answered.

Oh, yeah. It's completely ridiculous. Did you just figure that out?

I would guess it's the main reason people are calling you out on it.