South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[dudalb]

History is written by the victors.

Not that crap statement again.

 

[Cleon]

Not that crap statement again.

The thing is, we don't need the history written by the victors, because we have the actual words written by the losers.

 

[dudalb]

Considering that the flag has a direct connection to racism, can you blame them ?

Reallyreallyreallyreally ?

I think we might b e dealing with a Contrarian here...you know somebody who will automatically take any view opposed to the majority just because it makes him look cool and edgy and daring.

 

[Border Reiver]

History is written by the victors.

History is not written by the victors.

If that were true there would be no pro-Confederate histories of the ACW, no pro-Nazi histories of WWII, and certainly no histories un complementary to the U.S. concerning their interactions with the First Nations.

 

[dudalb]

The thing is, we don't need the history written by the victors, because we have the actual words written by the losers.

You are right, but still, I HATE that statement just because it displays such a ignorance of how history works.
I also note that the people who seem to use it the most are those defending unsavory regimes....it's a big favorite among the Holocaust revisionists.

 

[RandFan]

You are right, but still, I HATE that statement just because it displays such a ignorance of how history works.
I also note that the people who seem to use it the most are those defending unsavory regimes....it's a big favorite among the Holocaust revisionists.

Can we agree that history is influenced more by those who are victorious than those who are not? Perspective and bias being what they are most objective scientists take pains to control for them. Is history immune from the perspective afforded by victory?

 

[dudalb]

And that flag was created for a new nation with high ideals that the nation itself was not completely ready for. Slavery was not mentioned in the constitution nor the bill of rights.

.

The Consitution does have a indirect reference to Slavery in the infamous 3/5 of a man provision.
Jeffeson wrote a clause into the Declaration of Inddpendenc condemning the Slave Trade,but it was dropped. There is a great scene...and song about this in the play and movie "1776" called "Rum Tobbaco,and Slaves".

There is agreat line in Speilberg's Lincoln were after the Amendment abolishing Slavery is passed, Thaddeus Stevens notes that the US constitution mentions Slavery by name only once..to abolish it.

BTW although it is a musical, 1776 is surprising accurate about the debate over the Declaration Of Indendence.

 

[dudalb]

Can we agree that history is influenced more by those who are victorious than those who are not? Perspective and bias being what they are most objective scientists take pains to control for them. Is history immune from the perspective afforded by victory?

Of course, but 90% of the people who use that line are trying to defend some crackpot revisionist version of History.

 

[RandFan]

Of course, but 90% of the people who use that line are trying to defend some crackpot revisionist version of History.

Fair enough.

 

[marplots]

It's nice to see the polarity machine gifting the US with our own swastika. Teams now forming in your area, don't be left out.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I'm so glad that social conservatives are quickly becoming the minority in the nation.

 

[The Greater Fool]

The Consitution does have a indirect reference to Slavery in the infamous 3/5 of a man provision.
Jeffeson wrote a clause into the Declaration of Inddpendenc condemning the Slave Trade,but it was dropped. There is a great scene...and song about this in the play and movie "1776" called "Rum Tobbaco,and Slaves".

There is agreat line in Speilberg's Lincoln were after the Amendment abolishing Slavery is passed, Thaddeus Stevens notes that the US constitution mentions Slavery by name only once..to abolish it.

BTW although it is a musical, 1776 is surprising accurate about the debate over the Declaration Of Indendence.

Thanks for the indirect correction.

I am absolutely a fan of "1776." The song/scene you mention is very powerful.

I think there is a lot that can be learned from how the founding fathers managed to get buy in from such disparate forces.

 

[corybluefire]

This article has been spread all over Facebook today in support of the confederate flag http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm ..... Who is Robert M Grooms and what are his credentials?

 

[Dani]

Americans have an unparalleled capacity for viral outrage.

This time the outcome is perfect considering the target, but this type of thing usually makes me cringe.

From what I've read and what I already knew, this seems to have been building-up for years, which, coupled with the traumatic incident and its connection to the flag has created this snowball.

 

[marplots]

This article has been spread all over Facebook today in support of the confederate flag http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm ..... Who is Robert M Grooms and what are his credentials?

Here's a nice bit from that:
"The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves)."

Only 5% of Southern Whites owned slaves? Sounds good. Until you realize that if dad owns the slaves, mom and the four kids don't. And, of course, all those people who don't have any use for a slave don't buy one. And, of course, lots of people couldn't afford to own a slave...

Sadly, the article misses the real fart in the soup - slavery itself. The idea of it, the support of it, the allowing it. These statistics are equivalent to supporting swastikas because, hey, hardly any Nazis actually killed Jews, on a percentage basis.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

This article has been spread all over Facebook today in support of the confederate flag http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm ..... Who is Robert M Grooms and what are his credentials?

Not good, from what little I've found so far. According to a discussion on Wikipedia's Talk page for "Slavery in the United States":

Googling, I was only able to find material by this author published on far-right and white supremacist websites (some claiming to be publishing with permission, although maybe this should not be taken at face value). The author seems to have written for the Barnes Review, which you can see from the wikilink is not a neutral source for articles connected to race or history in general. --FormerIP (talk) 17:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

 

[The Greater Fool]

This article has been spread all over Facebook today in support of the confederate flag http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm ..... Who is Robert M Grooms and what are his credentials?

It seems racists would embrace this much the way Creationists look for flaws in Evolution...

Somehow, if some blacks owned slaves, then racism can't be a major cog of slavery.

Just like black Republicans make it impossible for Republican policies to be racist.

 

[Craig B]

It seems racists would embrace this much the way Creationists look for flaws in Evolution...

Somehow, if some blacks owned slaves, then racism can't be a major cog of slavery.

Just like black Republicans make it impossible for Republican policies to be racist.

Did as many Black slaveowners own White slaves, as Whites owned Black ones? If so, we might be able to eliminate racism from descriptions of the Peculiar Institution.

 

[Walter Ego]

Multiracial Group Of Teachers And Activists Take Down South Carolina Confederate Flag



One day later at the SC Statehouse.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

Here's a nice bit from that:
"The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves)."

Only 5% of Southern Whites owned slaves? Sounds good. Until you realize that if dad owns the slaves, mom and the four kids don't. And, of course, all those people who don't have any use for a slave don't buy one. And, of course, lots of people couldn't afford to own a slave...

Sadly, the article misses the real fart in the soup - slavery itself. The idea of it, the support of it, the allowing it. These statistics are equivalent to supporting swastikas because, hey, hardly any Nazis actually killed Jews, on a percentage basis.

The stats are more than a bit misleading since women had limited property rights and children had none. Slaves had none either. If you break it down by families, which you can also do with the 1860 census, almost half of all families in South Carolina and Mississippi owned at least one slave (48 and 49%). Most of the rest of the confederate states had ownership rates of between 20-33% (again, by family). Delaware had the lowest, only something like 3% of families there owned a slave. But then, they didn't try to leave the Union. So it was a LOT more common to find a family using slave labor in "the South" than the CSA apologists like to claim.

FYI, of the "free states" there were still about a dozen or so slaves in New Jersey which was ending a long period of gradual emancipation.

And yes, a handful of free black men owned slaves, as did some Native Americans.