South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Fast Eddie B]

Will Fox either pull the Simpsons episode, "The Cartridge Family" or digitally remove the flag?

Was inspired to watch this episode by the Canada/England women's soccer game tonight.

 

[Mumbles]

Whether or not FOX continues to sell it is up to FOX.

As far as flying it at capitols, putting it on license plates, and the like go, you've heard the demand: take it down.

 

[angrysoba]

Seriously? People are back to this idiotic race card whine about the Confederate flag? And it's trendy now because one lunatic white supremacist went nuts? As if ranting about the flag has any connection?

seriouslyreallyreallyseriouslyreally?

All hail the PC Gestapo, who will tell you what something means even if it doesn't, cuz there's their opinion and the wrong one. And if you disagree, you are a racist and to be vilified in classic PC race card passive aggressive fashion. Sieg heil!

With that new avatar, on no you di'n't!

 

[Craig B]

History is written by the victors.

And these words were written by the owner of several hundred slaves.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The events of 1860-1865 were History's stern way of resolving the contradiction between word and deed. In part, that is; for more remained to be done a hundred years later.

 

[jimbob]

Seriously? People are back to this idiotic race card whine about the Confederate flag? And it's trendy now because one lunatic white supremacist went nuts? As if ranting about the flag has any connection?

seriouslyreallyreallyseriouslyreally?

All hail the PC Gestapo, who will tell you what something means even if it doesn't, cuz there's their opinion and the wrong one. And if you disagree, you are a racist and to be vilified in classic PC race card passive aggressive fashion. Sieg heil!

With that new avatar, on no you di'n't!

Indeed,

Mike G has a suggestion that is more open about what that flag means:

I'm not racist but I like the idea of displaying a flag that was unpopular for a century, and only had a revival when white supremacists resurrected it in response to the civil-rights movement.

How very dare you call me a racist - it represents such noble sentiments as this:

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made….But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.​

Which is all about the rule of law - I know it was a bit unjust, but there you are..

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.​

I know that sounds bad, but it wasn't *just* about racism -it was also about treason.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Whether or not FOX continues to sell it is up to FOX.

Karen and I had forgotten that the name of the gun shop Homer was in was called "Bloodbath And Beyond"!

 

[Meadmaker]

I had never heard of the organization called Sons of Confederate Veterans before. I don't know much about them, but I did visit their web site.

I'm guessing that if you go back a few decades, you would find that the membership of the CSV and the KKK had a fair degree of overlap. That's just a guess, mind you. However, today, there is a resolution on that web site that denounces the appropriation of the flag by hate groups like the KKK. The confederate flag should not be used by such groups because it was not a symbol of that sort of hate, but rather of the JUST CAUSE (emphasis in original) of the southern states.

BS, right?

Well, yes. But think about it for a minute. In this modern world, you have a group like CSV using the confederate flag as an opportunity to denounce hate groups and racism. There's an opportunity there. It seems to me that getting flag users to publicly denounce racism is more valuable then getting people to stop using the flag.


I also read an article from the gift shop at Vicksburg National Memorial Park. It was about removing the flags, key chains, and coasters that featured the Confederate Battle Flag. They also removed the Stars and Bars and the Bonnie Blue, which they also sold, because the order from the director of the National Park Service was ambiguous. There are also a couple of nearby museums not affiliated with the Park Service. Guess which items are sold out due to a sudden increase in demand.



(Im eligible to join the group, but didn't pick up an application.)

 

[Belz...]

Seriously? People are back to this idiotic race card whine about the Confederate flag?

Considering that the flag has a direct connection to racism, can you blame them ?

Reallyreallyreallyreally ?

 

[jimbob]

Seriously? People are back to this idiotic race card whine about the Confederate flag?

Considering that the flag has a direct connection to racism, can you blame them ?

Reallyreallyreallyreally ?

And that this movement to remove the flag from public buildings came as a direct response to the shootings by a racist who used that flag and that of other openly racist regimes.

A flag that only went up on the state building in 1961 in response to the civil rights movement as a gigantic two* fingers to it. It was only removed from the state buildings and moved to its present situation (on a public monument)
this century.

The motive for flying this particular racist symbol on the state buildings was racist. I can't say about the movement, but the clauses to keep it flying seem either badly thought or racist too.

German towns have war memorials without Nazi memorabilia. It is possible, and advisable.

*ETA: as a Brit, I think there is a subtle difference between the one and two fingered salutes.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

That flag was placed atop the capital in 1961 as a response to segregation battles of the time. It was moved to the memorial a few years ago.

Regardless of precisely where it files, it still flies on government property at the behest of the state government. The picture highlights this fact clearly enough, that claiming it is designed to inflame the passions of the uninformed is, frankly, uninformed.


The GOVERNMENT doesn't have free speech. The government should not (and 'should not' should be 'can not') partake in speech that alienates a significant part of it's citizenry.


Some just don't seem to get that it is the people that want to keep this flag in place are using the "just in this one case" argument. In this one case it is a symbol of culture, not hatred. In this one case, the treasonous flag of a treasonous group of secessionists must legally fly on state property. In this one case, it's not about what is right. In this one case, government should proudly fly this symbol of hatred.

Let's face facts:
- In 1861, the flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.
- In 1961, the flag was again flown by segregationists that wanted to keep black people separate and subservient.
- A few years ago, unable to so openly display such blatant hatred in the face of protests from oversensitive minorities, the location of the flag was changed from atop the capital to a confederate soldiers memorial. Less blatant government mandated hatred, but still state government mandated racism caused the flag to continue to fly on state property, at the front of the state capital.
- 18 June 2015, a white racist killed 9 black folks, one of which was a state senator. The white racist left a manifesto and several pictures with guns and this symbol of southern culture.
- Racists that had the power in 1961 to raise this symbol of racism no longer had the power to keep it aloft in 2015.

People have raised their voices in protest at the removal of this atrocious racist symbol. The vast majority protest that it took so long, and such tragedy, to get this racist symbol of government racism removed. A minority protest that somehow this is the beginning of the end of free speech.

Let's face some more facts:
- In 1776, another flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.
- In 1776, that flag was again flown by segregationists that wanted to keep black people separate and subservient.
- Stromberg v. California (283 U.S. 359) — The Supreme Court finds that a State statute prohibiting the display of a "red flag" as a sign of opposition to organized government unconstitutionally infringed on the defendant's First Amendment rights. Stromberg represents the Court's first declaration that "symbolic speech" is protected by the First Amendment.
- Racists that had the power in 1776 to raise this symbol of racism no longer have the power to keep it aloft in 2015.

People have raised their voices in protest at the removal of this atrocious racist symbol. The vast majority protest that it took so long, and such tragedy, to get this racist symbol of government racism removed. A minority protest that somehow this is the beginning of the end of free speech.

Take down the US Flag then.
Chris B.

 

[jimbob]

Let's face some more facts:
- In 1776, another flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.
- In 1776, that flag was again flown by segregationists that wanted to keep black people separate and subservient.
- Stromberg v. California (283 U.S. 359) — The Supreme Court finds that a State statute prohibiting the display of a "red flag" as a sign of opposition to organized government unconstitutionally infringed on the defendant's First Amendment rights. Stromberg represents the Court's first declaration that "symbolic speech" is protected by the First Amendment.
- Racists that had the power in 1776 to raise this symbol of racism no longer have the power to keep it aloft in 2015.

People have raised their voices in protest at the removal of this atrocious racist symbol. The vast majority protest that it took so long, and such tragedy, to get this racist symbol of government racism removed. A minority protest that somehow this is the beginning of the end of free speech.

Take down the US Flag then.
Chris B.

I'm confused - I thought the US revolution was not just about the right to own slaves.

The Confederate States started "the War of Northern Aggression" due to the issue of slavery. Pretending otherwise is silly. Pretending that the revival of the battle flag during the Civil Rights movement was anything other than an attempt to proclaim white supremacy is disingenuous.

The US, like other countries has done bad as well as good. The Confederate Battle Flag has no redeeming features - it was designed as the battle flag of an evil cause.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Let's face some more facts:
- In 1776, another flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.

And that flag was created for a new nation with high ideals that the nation itself was not completely ready for. Slavery was not mentioned in the constitution nor the bill of rights.

The other flag represented slavery, for a secessionist nation built upon slavery, for the sole intent of retaining slavery, apart from token lip service to other ideas.

One of these is not like the other.

- In 1776, that flag was again flown by segregationists that wanted to keep black people separate and subservient.

Addressed, but here's your chance: Do show us citations where the American Rebel leaders expressed their fight for secession (aka, independence) was to preserve slavery.

- Stromberg v. California (283 U.S. 359) — The Supreme Court finds that a State statute prohibiting the display of a "red flag" as a sign of opposition to organized government unconstitutionally infringed on the defendant's First Amendment rights. Stromberg represents the Court's first declaration that "symbolic speech" is protected by the First Amendment.

Yes, passing a law prohibiting individuals from flying whatever flag they like is rightly unconstitutional. I'm sorry, who in this thread has argued otherwise?

Of course, that has nothing to do with this situation: Government passing a law to force government to fly a flag that symbolizes succession and slavery. Fortunately, that law is on the ropes. Either way, it has no impact on PRIVATE flag waving rights, so racists are safe flying their symbol.

- Racists that had the power in 1776 to raise this symbol of racism no longer have the power to keep it aloft in 2015.

Patently nonsensical. The USA flag is in absolutely no danger today.

However, here is your chance: Do show us how the Constitution enshrines slavery.

The US is far from perfect, but it was founded on ideas and ideals that are worthy to strive toward. The CSA on the other hand was founded on slavery, to protect and expand slavery, and rightly has settled into the dustbin of history.

People have raised their voices in protest at the removal of this atrocious racist symbol. The vast majority protest that it took so long, and such tragedy, to get this racist symbol of government racism removed. A minority protest that somehow this is the beginning of the end of free speech.

Again, do show us this MAJORITY of voices that are raised to REMOVE the US Flag because of racism. There are, in fact, groups that have a legitimate reason to dislike the USA and what it has done to certain groups. Sadly, the people championing the CSA, slavery, and racism would trample these other groups in their rush to embrace 'culture.'

Currently, the largest voice to remove the USA flag are people that are naysaying the correctness of this action by trying to create a false equivalence. Sad, really.

ETA: Obviously, for some this is an immature naysaying game.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I'm confused - I thought the US revolution was not just about the right to own slaves.

No, the US revolution was worse. It was a bunch of slave owning aristocrats that didn't want to pay their taxes and had no problems whatsoever discriminating against all races other than Whites. Remember the Indian Wars?
Indian Reservations? Chinese railroad workers? Mexicans?

The Confederate States started "the War of Northern Aggression" due to the issue of slavery. Pretending otherwise is silly. Pretending that the revival of the battle flag during the Civil Rights movement was anything other than an attempt to proclaim white supremacy is disingenuous.

As above but not only limited to White supremacy just over Black, but also over American Indians, Chinese and Mexicans to name a few.

The US, like other countries has done bad as well as good. The Confederate Battle Flag has no redeeming features - it was designed as the battle flag of an evil cause.

As was the US flag. So both should be removed. The same case outlined for removal of the Confederate Battle flag is nowhere near as strong as the case for removing the US flag when applied equally.
Chris B.

 

[jimbob]

ChrisBFRPKY,

I contend that the Civil War, like WWII, but few others, had one side that was definitely the bad guys.

The US has done good and bad, but the CSA was entirely bad. It's sole reason was to preserve slavery.

The British Empire did many bad acts, but fighting Nazis wasn't one of them.

 

[Ladewig]

Let's face some more facts:
- In 1776, another flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.
- In 1776, that flag was again flown by segregationists that wanted to keep black people separate and subservient.
- Stromberg v. California (283 U.S. 359) — The Supreme Court finds that a State statute prohibiting the display of a "red flag" as a sign of opposition to organized government unconstitutionally infringed on the defendant's First Amendment rights. Stromberg represents the Court's first declaration that "symbolic speech" is protected by the First Amendment.
- Racists that had the power in 1776 to raise this symbol of racism no longer have the power to keep it aloft in 2015.

People have raised their voices in protest at the removal of this atrocious racist symbol. The vast majority protest that it took so long, and such tragedy, to get this racist symbol of government racism removed. A minority protest that somehow this is the beginning of the end of free speech.

Take down the US Flag then.
Chris B.

You talked me into it.
I agree with your argument that the 13-star flag should no longer fly over state capitols. Mr. Governor, take down that 13-star flag. Of course, even the dullest of intellects will agree that free speech laws will mean that the 13-star flag may be flown by private individuals in any manner they choose.

Meanwhile, the 50-star flag should continue to fly over state capitols. That flag symbolizes laws which prevent discrimination based on race, ethnicity, sex, and religion. Hurray, America.

 

[Meadmaker]

You talked me into it.
I agree with your argument that the 13-star flag should no longer fly over state capitols.

Another bit of flag trivia here: It is still perfectly legal to fly the 13 star flag at government settings. If a design has ever been used as a flag of the United States, it remains a US flag. The fifty star flag is, of course, the most appropriate American flag, but any previous flag is still considered an American flag.

So, if you were at an occasion where it was appropriate to salute a flag, and the 13 star flag was present, you would salute that flag.

 

[Cleon]

Let's face some more facts:
- In 1776, another flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

I see your point. They're totally equivalent.

 

[Craig B]

I see your point. They're totally equivalent.

You omitted the part of the Corner Stone Speech which clearly expresses the differences and redounds most to the credit of Jefferson and the others of 1776.

The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time.

 

[jimbob]

This cartoon:

 

[Border Reiver]

Let's face some more facts:

- In 1776, another flag was flown by secessionists that wanted to own black people.

- In 1776, that flag was again flown by segregationists that wanted to keep black people separate and subservient.

- Stromberg v. California (283 U.S. 359) — The Supreme Court finds that a State statute prohibiting the display of a "red flag" as a sign of opposition to organized government unconstitutionally infringed on the defendant's First Amendment rights. Stromberg represents the Court's first declaration that "symbolic speech" is protected by the First Amendment.

- Racists that had the power in 1776 to raise this symbol of racism no longer have the power to keep it aloft in 2015.



People have raised their voices in protest at the removal of this atrocious racist symbol. The vast majority protest that it took so long, and such tragedy, to get this racist symbol of government racism removed. A minority protest that somehow this is the beginning of the end of free speech.

Not sure what flag you are referring to here, given that the American flag didn't exist in 1776. At that time there was no national U.S. flag, just the flags of the 13 Colonies.

Take down the US Flag then.

Chris B.

Ah.

The U.S. flag though stands for more than a battle flag of a failed racist regime. Let us know if you want an actual discussion, or if you just want to pretend to be hurt.