Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

I didn't see a reference to the Italian's diagnosing him on your link.

The quote above wasn't a quote in the article which seems based on Nina's work.

IIRC King was FOA and commented often and widely.

Can't find a hit for "Guede diagnosed"

Page 123 Nina - looks like she may be the sole original source.

Here's the quote from that page link:

"Rudy never wanted to go home and was always happy to sleep on the floor of the apartment Victor shared with roommates. This only became a problem when Rudy started displaying very strange sleeping disorders. His eyes were normally droopy and during these attacks one couldn’t tell if he was awake or asleep. Rudy would rise in the middle of the night and, using a dresser as a black board, teach a lesson as though he was a professor, moving seamlessly between Italian and English. The students found this particularly unsettling. When he awoke in the morning he had no memory of the event. He told his friends that at home he had to hide his keys from himself because he tended to get up in this state and wander the streets, only to awaken miles from his home.

He also had periods of crawling on the floor and barking like a dog.

After his arrest, these behaviors were classified as psychogenic dissociative state or Fugue State, often associated with multiple personality disorder and nearly always the result of childhood sexual and physical abuse."

Was buried pretty low. It also reminds me of Nina's account, it may just be paraphrased or a direct quote. Don't know for sure.

If you're taking the position that original investigative reporting is always invented, then your just chasing your tail in circles it seems to me, because you can never accept any info - or rather, have the ability to disregard any info you find unpalatable.

 

[Dougm]

I didn't see a reference to the Italian's diagnosing him on your link.

The quote above wasn't a quote in the article which seems based on Nina's work.

IIRC King was FOA and commented often and widely.

Can't find a hit for "Guede diagnosed"

Page 123 Nina - looks like she may be the sole original source.

Although I have not researched this in any extensive way, my memory says that Nina was the only one to spend any time looking into Rudy's background. To others who researched the case, he was just this local random drifter guy. Nina interviewed friends of Rudy, learned about his childhood, etc. I agree we can't say with 100% certainty that her findings are accurate, but I don't think anyone else bothered to check, and she claims to have spoken to a series of people who actually knew Rudy at various points in his life. I see no reason she would have needed to make that up.

 

[Numbers]

....

From Numbers' posts it would seem he could have pled mental deficiency and beat the rap.

You raise an interesting point about whether Guede could have claimed that mental impairment would have prevented him from being held criminally responsible. This might not mean, in Italy, that he would be simply released - I speculate such cases are sent for psychiatric treatment. There is a provision for precautionary detention in a place such as a prison or hospital offering secure facilities for psychiatric cases, CPP Article 286. I have not yet found a similar CPP article for one who is acquitted due to an issue of limited mental capacity.

 

[Kauffer]

I didn't see a reference to the Italian's diagnosing him on your link.

The quote above wasn't a quote in the article which seems based on Nina's work.

IIRC King was FOA and commented often and widely.

Can't find a hit for "Guede diagnosed"

Page 123 Nina - looks like she may be the sole original source.

It is in the article, Grinder - just before half way down. Karen Pruett has it as well:

"Later, in prison, he was diagnosed as having Psychogenic Dissociation, commonly called “Fugue State.” "

http://groundreport.com/the-murder-of-meredith-kercher/

It all might be nonsense, of course.

 

[Kauffer]

Although I have not researched this in any extensive way, my memory says that Nina was the only one to spend any time looking into Rudy's background. To others who researched the case, he was just this local random drifter guy. Nina interviewed friends of Rudy, learned about his childhood, etc. I agree we can't say with 100% certainty that her findings are accurate, but I don't think anyone else bothered to check, and she claims to have spoken to a series of people who actually knew Rudy at various points in his life. I see no reason she would have needed to make that up.

I'm sure somebody here has a connection to Nina. I'm now interested enough to want to know if this is credible. Could someone ask her?

 

[carbonjam72]

You raise an interesting point about whether Guede could have claimed that mental impairment would have prevented him from being held criminally responsible. This might not mean, in Italy, that he would be simply released - I speculate such cases are sent for psychiatric treatment. There is a provision for precautionary detention in a place such as a prison or hospital offering secure facilities for psychiatric cases, CPP Article 286. I have not yet found a similar CPP article for one who is acquitted due to an issue of limited mental capacity.

But this would also involve Rudy giving up the story he had given originally about some strange guy who really did the crime.

I think Rudy would be loathe to acknowledge mental illness as a defense. I think he is longing to be a part of society, not an outsider, as a confirmed mental illness would surely make him.

I think Rudy played his cards beautifully, and came out with a great deal for himself. Isn't he already allowed out on day release from prison? He could just disappear into a small town, maybe change his appearance, hide his background, who knows.

Maybe the Caporallis will offer him a gardening job again? Anyway, Rudy is on the verge of being out and about again. Wonder if he's capable of holding a job? Seems to have done well enough in a prison environment.

 

[Numbers]

Quite so. Even if Italy were to reverse the calunnia conviction in Marasca's coming motivation (I know, most people think I'm nuts for holding out hope on this point), but even if Italy now or eventually did vacate Amanda's conviction for calunnia, Italy still has an obligation to investigate the complaint for inhuman and degrading treatment.

And such an investigation would not merely be limited to the coercive interrogation and the slaps on the head from Ficarra, but also the use of false testimony by Stefanoni and Rinaldi and any other of the state's experts that was given to keep Amanda and Raf in pre-trial detention, depriving them of their freedom.

So the ECHR case could well instigate the investigation that is likely to occur, in my view. I think Frank Sfarzo already hinted that Mignin was being eye balled within days of the acquittal verdict. SO I think these things are already underway.

Notice how Napoleone is already accumulating black marks for her other misdeeds? Question is really about Stefanoni and Rinaldi. Will an investigation reach up to Commodi and Mignini?

I think that's where the action is going forwards. How high and wide does an investigation go? Will ultimate blame be pinned on Mignini, where it belongs? Its the Italian version of "Pin the tail on the Donkey".

From a legal standpoint, Amanda's application pending in ECHR only treats her conviction for calunnia, and that would involve the interrogation of Nov. 5/6, but not very likely any action by Stefanoni or the other prosecution experts. It would likely concentrate attention on the actions of the police, prosecutors (especially Mignini), and actions - or lack of actions - by the judges. ECHR itself could not, by the Convention, force an investigation; that would be the responsibility of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe and Italy itself. ECHR could judge Italy had violated Amanda Knox's Convention rights, declare that the conviction for calunnia was in violation of those rights, and declare that Knox was entitled to ask for a retrial or other revision. It could also award her pecuniary and non-pecuniary damages (these awards by ECHR are typically relatively small) and legal costs.

 

[Grinder]

Although I have not researched this in any extensive way, my memory says that Nina was the only one to spend any time looking into Rudy's background. To others who researched the case, he was just this local random drifter guy. Nina interviewed friends of Rudy, learned about his childhood, etc. I agree we can't say with 100% certainty that her findings are accurate, but I don't think anyone else bothered to check, and she claims to have spoken to a series of people who actually knew Rudy at various points in his life. I see no reason she would have needed to make that up.

One thing is the way these pieces are spread. The King article is based on Nina. Then others write on Ground Report, IIP, here, in comments etc. yet these alleged facts are not vetted.

Nina had a few reasons to push her points. Selling books being one and having her theory being accepted.

I don't know that Nina was the only one that looked into Rudi's past.

I guess I find it strange that only Nina would have found this stuff in the first place and that no other writers, to my knowledge, have gone back an verified. Unlike contemporaneous articles, a book based on a crime isn't put through the same vetting as the genre allows some fiction (read Follains police quotes) and comes out years after the event.

I was and am very suspicious of Fois because of the witnesses he and only he found.

 

[davefoc]

This applies EXCEPT for murder cases.

It is possible that the Italian Supreme Court isn't following this thread regularly. Perhaps Vixen or somebody else could forward them Vixen's information about the illegality of their actions. They may have acted in good faith and just not understood what they did was illegal. When they find out I'm sure they're going to reverse direction and apologize for their illegal actions.

ETA: I should have noted that Numbers has questioned some of the information in Vixen's posts on this point, so perhaps we should hold off for a bit before contacting the ISC on this?

 

[Dougm]

It is in the article, Grinder - just before half way down. Karen Pruett has it as well:

"Later, in prison, he was diagnosed as having Psychogenic Dissociation, commonly called “Fugue State.” "

http://groundreport.com/the-murder-of-meredith-kercher/

It all might be nonsense, of course.

I'll do some checking and see if I can find the source of the claim.

 

[Grinder]

It is in the article, Grinder - just before half way down. Karen Pruett has it as well:

"Later, in prison, he was diagnosed as having Psychogenic Dissociation, commonly called “Fugue State.” "

http://groundreport.com/the-murder-of-meredith-kercher/

It all might be nonsense, of course.

It wasn't in quotes was my point. Thought that was clear.

Where do you think Pruett got the info? Where did King get it?

From GR - Guede exhibits many of the characterizations of Dissocial Personality Disorder, including a callous unconcern for others, a persistent attitude of irresponsibility, unable to maintain relationships, does not experience guilt, does not learn from punishment, readily blames others and rationalizes bad behavior. All of these diagnoses fall in the realm of psychopathy, a personality disorder that includes “diminished capacity for remorse and poor behavioral controls.”

I don't see proof of most of the alleged characteristics - he had friends still from school days, the Spanish kids and downstairs boys hung with him, he had a girl friend in Milan that he lived with, and I don't know of any punishment he experienced before the murder.

 

[Grinder]

I'll do some checking and see if I can find the source of the claim.

Page 123 Fatal Gift of Beauty.

 

[Grinder]

Gary C. King, a freelance author and lecturer, is regarded by readers and critics alike as one of the world's foremost crime writers, a distinction he has attained over the last 32+ years with the publication of more than 500 articles in true crime magazines in the United States, Canada, and England. King took over Ann Rule's job as Pacific Northwest stringer for True Detective, Official Detective, Inside Detective, Front Page Detective, and Master Detective magazines, writing hundreds of articles under various names until those magazines ceased publication in the mid-1990s. More recently he has found alternate venues for his stories, including Crime Library. He has published several "classic" true crime stories for Investigation Discovery, which can be found on their website. He is also the author of several true crime books including: Blood Lust: Portrait of a Serial Sex Killer, Driven to Kill, Web of Deceit, Blind Rage, Savage Vengeance, An Early Grave, The Texas 7, Murder in Hollywood, Angels of Death, Stolen in the Night, Love, Lies, and Murder, An Almost Perfect Murder, Butcher, Rage, and The Murder of Meredith Kercher.


Wonder if this King is bothered by the latest book.

 

[lonepinealex]

It is possible that the Italian Supreme Court isn't following this thread regularly. Perhaps Vixen or somebody else could forward them Vixen's information about the illegality of their actions. They may have acted in good faith and just not understood what they did was illegal. When they find out I'm sure they're going to reverse direction and apologize for their illegal actions.

ETA: I should have noted that Numbers has questioned some of the information in Vixen's posts on this point, so perhaps we should hold off for a bit before contacting the ISC on this?

Time's running short though. Mind, someone must have let the ISC know by now, surely?

 

[Numbers]

Time's running short though. Mind, someone must have let the ISC know by now, surely?

I will suggest that statements from posters questioning the legal basis of the Marasca CSC panel acquittal actually originate from deep within the pool of guilters.

 

[lonepinealex]

I will suggest that statements from posters questioning the legal basis of the Marasca CSC panel acquittal actually originate from deep within the pool of guilters.

I'm sure that they do. I'm amazed anyone here's giving them the time of day, except for the lulz.

 

[Ken Dine]

I'm sure that they do. I'm amazed anyone here's giving them the time of day, except for the lulz.

Many people slow down to gawk at accidents on our highways, so watching 'Guilters' publicly self-destruct after March 27th is rather the same thing, but without any downside since today they can only hurt themselves.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree with you that this is over, but I am not sure I would be willing to bet against what the crazy people that ran this prosecution might do. I've been shocked before at the crazy charges filed.

Don't expect to hear back for several days. I think your betting partner is on an unplanned vacation.

I understand you being wary. But it's over Doug. The callunia trial might go on..but gn that looks like it will die on the vine. And one can be assured that Amanda is protected for sure now against double jeopardy.

 

[Numbers]

I understand you being wary. But it's over Doug. The callunia trial might go on..but gn that looks like it will die on the vine. And one can be assured that Amanda is protected for sure now against double jeopardy.

Part of what is going on now, and was perhaps a major reason for the Chieffi CSC panel and Nencini court judgments, is the protection of the police and prosecutors who engineered this miscarriage of justice from legal accountability and from public scrutiny.

 

[Grinder]

Here's a section from Mignini et al. suit against Maori and the magazine that wrote a story.

It suffices in fact to briefly glance over Maori’s complaints to realise that the same has ignored the contents of the First Chamber judgment and has actually attributed a prejudicially hostile behaviour of the investigators towards the accused:
concerning the homeless man [=Curatolo] the lawyer repeats the usual allegations of testimonial unreliability linked to his habits and his lifestyle and to the fact of his having already been a witness in other cases (that aspect is logically incomprehensible and ought to constitute an element of reliability of the witness rather than an element counting against him) and concerning the murder weapon he insinuates that it had been pulled out of a kitchen drawer when the medico-legal findings “were talking of a large kitchen knife as the murder weapon” (see page 6 of the article). But has Advocate Maori seen the seized knife? It actually is a large kitchen knife on which had been found the genetic profile of Ms Knox at the point where the blade began, straight after the “buffer stop” or guard of the handle and the victim’s profile on the blade, near to the point.

Back to the idea that Italian brains just work differently. He was often a witness and that should make him more credible?

ETA - More - Perhaps Advocate Maori is overlooking that, by now, owing to the force of the judgment that definitively confirmed the responsibility of Rudy Hermann Guede, the homicide against Meredith is a crime committed by three people in company?