Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

They could also investigate it, which in theory they are supposed to do. Of course, in Italy, well...

Surely it's unethical to investigate oneself (self review: threat to professional integrity). ISTM bringing it to a court of law is the fairest way to independently assess Amanda's allegation. If her claims are true, you would think she'd be delighted at the chance to put her case and seek legal remedy.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda's parents were sued because of a newspaper article but Patrick was not. This has nothing to do with anything said in court.

All Amanda's parents did was to repeat something that was said in court to a journalist. Patrick actually made accusations against the police to a journalist.

It just seems strange that one party was sued and the other was seemingly forgotten about.

Also, the statement that Amanda was found guilty of was not made in court, but at an illegal/unlawful police interrogation.

Could be, noone filed a complaint against Patrick. A complaint has to be lodged, for it to be investigated.

 

[Mr Fied]

It could be police perceived Edda and Curt's antics a calculated attempt to pervert the course of justice.

Or it could be perceived to be vindictiveness.

If there are no sub judice laws or jury sequestration then surely you must be allowed to comment on something that has happened in a court case and is already public information.

If there were any parties in this case who attempted to pervert the course of justice, I would think the accused and their families would have been at the bottom of the list.

 

[acbytesla]

You can't have your cake and eat it. Your main neme is, there is no evidence of Amanda there.

As Dr Gill (?) said, absence of DNA is not absence from the scene.

I don't disagree with that. But the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that they were there. More impressive than the absence of Amanda and Raffaele's DNA is the absence of fingerprints, shoe prints in the murder room and the absence of any emails, calls or texts between Rudy and Amanda/Raffaele.

 

[Numbers]

This applies EXCEPT for murder cases.

Citation, please.

I have found no such exception in the CPP.

My statement:

1. Code of Criminal Procedure (CPP) Article 620 is the Italian procedural law which governs the annulment of an appealed case without referral by the Supreme Court of Cassation (CSC). There are ten sub-paragraphs, 1A through 1L, each describing a situation or status where the CSC may annul a case that has been appealed to it without referral. The tenth, 1L, is very broad; it states:

1. In addition to the cases specifically provided for by the law, the CSC shall deliver a judgment of annulment without referral...(L) in any other case in which the CSC believes the referral is superfluous or may proceed to the determination of the sentence or take the necessary decisions.



Thus, if the CSC panel reviewing an appeal believes that the judgment of the lower court should be annulled, it has the legal authority to do so. If it believes that referral after annulment is unnecessary, it need not refer the case. Finally, the CSC has the authority to determine the sentence - which means it may follow or invoke any of the CPP Articles 529 (Judgment of non-prosecution), 530 (Judgment of acquittal), 531 (Declaration of extinguishment of the offence), 533 (Conviction of the accused person), or any of the other articles of sentencing, such as those relating to civil actions.

 

[Bill Williams]

Amanda's parents were sued because of a newspaper article but Patrick was not. This has nothing to do with anything said in court.

All Amanda's parents did was to repeat something that was said in court to a journalist. Patrick actually made accusations against the police to a journalist.

It just seems strange that one party was sued and the other was seemingly forgotten about.

Also, the statement that Amanda was found guilty of was not made in court, but at an illegal/unlawful police interrogation.

It could be police perceived Edda and Curt's antics a calculated attempt to pervert the course of justice.

Why was the author and publisher not also thought of as, "pervert(ing) the course of justice"? When you answer that, you may be on to something.

 

[Grinder]

He stole the knife. FACT. He had stolen goods on him from a burglary 300 miles away which just happened to be his city of residence. FACT. The guy is demented and a liar. You have ZERO evidence that he was a fence.

He had the nursery's knife in his pack. He didn't leave the premises with it. He obviously didn't have a knife before settling in for the night. I doubt he would have left with it.

He had, as the charges indicated, bought or at least received from persons unknown, the laptop and phone. These were actually items liberated from the lawyers' office, but he wasn't charged with theft of them.

There is no more evidence he was a burglar than that he was a fence. The Spanish students' report of a large number of computers adds to the fence evidence.

Notwithstanding the murder, what about his known history makes him demented?

 

[Grinder]

You have proven me wrong on a few things Grinder. But on this, it is you that is off base. The court ruled and the logic rules, Rudy was there to steal, not to sleep. That he didn't get a chance to steal is more luck than anything.

Why do you think the Ms. Prato's computer's cables had been disconnected? It's clear that he was preparing to steal it until he heard people entering the nursery. There were no signs that he spent the night.

I suggest you read the verdict. Prato's assessment that since the nursery mattresses hadn't been pushed together he hadn't slept there doesn't seem reasonable. The cables were going to be connected to his laptop to access the Internet. You are actually suggesting he was going to take a desktop computer and carry it down the streets of Milan? Or do you think Koko was going to pick him up?

Rudy is a small time thief. Why wouldn't he go back to the place he made a big score?

Maybe you'd better think about the above. Consider Locard's exchange theory.

Btw, what about that link to Diaz's Twitter account. Remember proving she exists is the first step. Then the burglary. Then the fire. Then the watch matching Diaz's description.

 

[Kauffer]

He had the nursery's knife in his pack. He didn't leave the premises with it. He obviously didn't have a knife before settling in for the night. I doubt he would have left with it.

He had, as the charges indicated, bought or at least received from persons unknown, the laptop and phone. These were actually items liberated from the lawyers' office, but he wasn't charged with theft of them.

There is no more evidence he was a burglar than that he was a fence. The Spanish students' report of a large number of computers adds to the fence evidence.

Notwithstanding the murder, what about his known history makes him demented?

Where did accounts of his alleged fugue state originate from? Are they credible?

 

[Grinder]

Obviously we know it's not true but why would somebody think it was? How would you know it was a handprint from a female in any case? There are some females with bigger handprints than some males, would anyone dispute that?

It reminds me of the medical examiner in the Scazzi case (also Italy) who claimed he could tell she was strangled by a female, and not just any female, but a rather heavy-set female, just like the accused.

IIRC it was an early fairly widely reported factoid.

 

[Ken Dine]

This was human error as highlighted by Nick van der Leek in DECEIT. The text going OUT to Patrick from Amanda was mistakenly referred to as coming IN from Patrick, and repeated by Massei. In fact, this proves beyond any doubt Amanda was at or near the cottage when she texted him, as that mast does not cover Raff's abode.

HUH? How could a mistake by Massei logically prove that Amanda was near her cottage during her text-message exchanges with Patrick?

We already went thru this! On June 16th I had posted detailed proof that the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 tower did in fact service Raffaele's apartment, which proves that Massei was wrong in claiming that Amanda's usage of this particular cell-tower proved she wasn't at Raffaele's apartment:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10713951#post10713951

In any event, Massei never claimed that Amanda's usage of the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 tower proved Amanda was near the cottage when she texted Lumumba, Massei only (wrongly) concluded that Amanda wasn't with Raffaele at his apartment when she texted Lumumba (i.e., Amanda had lied about her alibi).

You responded to my June 16th posting:

“It appears Judge Massei … made an error. He got mixed up and switched the locations of the two text messages around.. the second Judge, Nencini, repeated the same error as Massei.”

http://www.examiner.com/article/deceit-shocking-expos-of-amanda-knox-murder-case

You admitted that Massei & Nencini had screwed the pooch, but then you continue to use their obvious judicial errors against Amanda – what's up with that?

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>

Edited for rule 12.

 

[acbytesla]

Gladly.

So, it's a bet?

 

[Grinder]

[/HILITE]

Where did accounts of his alleged fugue state originate from? Are they credible?

You brought it up and it seems you need to provide the cites.

If you are talking about sleep walking and giving lectures in English (IIRC), maybe some friends or the boy's downstairs?

If it was a fugue state, does that make him demented as used by the poster I was responding to?

Do you remember where it was reported? Was it Dempsey? If only a PIP writer without backup, then not credible.

ETA - From; surprise, surprise; Nina - His own story -- an immigrants' son, adopted and then disowned by one of the richest families in Perugia, suffering from fugue states and sleep-walking -- makes him one of the more interesting characters in the case. His past criminal history involving break-ins certainly made him worthy of more study, but no one was inclined to pursue his tale.

ETA2 - I may be that the source is a Patrick King but his article starts with Nina Burleigh says...

Supposedly Victor was the source but in PK's Raffaele's page story I don't see quotes.

Did Rudi request mitigation because of this condition?

From Numbers' posts it would seem he could have pled mental deficiency and beat the rap.

 

[Numbers]

They could also investigate it, which in theory they are supposed to do. Of course, in Italy, well...

There is certainly an obligation based on ECHR case-law for the State (Italy) to independently investigate all allegations of mistreatment (including coercion and brutality or any form of "torture or inhuman or degrading" treatment) by the authorities, including the police.

 

[carbonjam72]

You brought it up and it seems you need to provide the cites.

If you are talking about sleep walking and giving lectures in English (IIRC), maybe some friends or the boy's downstairs?

If it was a fugue state, does that make him demented as used by the poster I was responding to?

Do you remember where it was reported? Was it Dempsey? If only a PIP writer without backup, then not credible.

I believe this was Nina Burleigh's reporting, when she went to do background on Rudy and found that virtually no other journalists had bothered to do likewise.

Which may be one of the reasons she has info that doesn't seem to be reported elsewhere before her reporting it.

(notice how this explanation is consistent with the meme bandied about that Nina started these memes that others picked up on and simply repeated. Its also consistent with Nina simply doing original investigative reporting).

I think Nina describes Rudy as having black out fugue states, waking up miles from his home, having trouble sleeping indoors, and sometime waking up in assumed different persona, "like a professor", "or a dog".

So I think its pretty well established by Nina that Rudy was/is legitimately struggling with mental conditions. The testimony of his friend that he was often drunk or high on drugs, and off his head, and particularly harassing and hostile to women and prone to stealing their purses - at some point Rudy's behavior is not regular, consistent, stable or predictable.

Its not at all clear the mental state Rudy was in when he killed Meredith, what persona he was wearing at the time, how high and on which drugs he might have been on, and that his fame of mind is in any way comparable to people with a non mentally ill health conditions that he clearly faced.

Anyway, I think Nina is your girl on this aspect of 'poor Rudy'.

 

[Dougm]

So, it's a bet?

I agree with you that this is over, but I am not sure I would be willing to bet against what the crazy people that ran this prosecution might do. I've been shocked before at the crazy charges filed.

Don't expect to hear back for several days. I think your betting partner is on an unplanned vacation.

 

[carbonjam72]

There is certainly an obligation based on ECHR case-law for the State (Italy) to independently investigate all allegations of mistreatment (including coercion and brutality or any form of "torture or inhuman or degrading" treatment) by the authorities, including the police.

Quite so. Even if Italy were to reverse the calunnia conviction in Marasca's coming motivation (I know, most people think I'm nuts for holding out hope on this point), but even if Italy now or eventually did vacate Amanda's conviction for calunnia, Italy still has an obligation to investigate the complaint for inhuman and degrading treatment.

And such an investigation would not merely be limited to the coercive interrogation and the slaps on the head from Ficarra, but also the use of false testimony by Stefanoni and Rinaldi and any other of the state's experts that was given to keep Amanda and Raf in pre-trial detention, depriving them of their freedom.

So the ECHR case could well instigate the investigation that is likely to occur, in my view. I think Frank Sfarzo already hinted that Mignin was being eye balled within days of the acquittal verdict. SO I think these things are already underway.

Notice how Napoleone is already accumulating black marks for her other misdeeds? Question is really about Stefanoni and Rinaldi. Will an investigation reach up to Commodi and Mignini?

I think that's where the action is going forwards. How high and wide does an investigation go? Will ultimate blame be pinned on Mignini, where it belongs? Its the Italian version of "Pin the tail on the Donkey".

 

[Dougm]

Did Rudi request mitigation because of this condition?

From Numbers' posts it would seem he could have pled mental deficiency and beat the rap.

In hindsight, maybe it would have been better for Rudy to claim mental impairment due to a childhood abuse, instead of jumping on the train with Mignini trying to railroad Amanda and Raffaele?

Too late now.

 

[Kauffer]

You brought it up and it seems you need to provide the cites.

If you are talking about sleep walking and giving lectures in English (IIRC), maybe some friends or the boy's downstairs?

If it was a fugue state, does that make him demented as used by the poster I was responding to?

Do you remember where it was reported? Was it Dempsey? If only a PIP writer without backup, then not credible.

ETA - From; surprise, surprise; Nina - His own story -- an immigrants' son, adopted and then disowned by one of the richest families in Perugia, suffering from fugue states and sleep-walking -- makes him one of the more interesting characters in the case. His past criminal history involving break-ins certainly made him worthy of more study, but no one was inclined to pursue his tale.

ETA2 - I may be that the source is a Patrick King but his article starts with Nina Burleigh says...

Supposedly Victor was the source but in PK's Raffaele's page story I don't see quotes.

Did Rudi request mitigation because of this condition?

From Numbers' posts it would seem he could have pled mental deficiency and beat the rap.

My question was not a rhetorical one. I simply don't know. There seem to be lots of references and Nina Burleigh brings it up. It appears that some people including Victor Oleinikov gave an account of strange behaviour. And then there's this:

"After his arrest, these behaviors were classified as psychogenic dissociative state or Fugue State, often associated with multiple personality disorder and nearly always the result of childhood sexual and physical abuse."

If that claim is true, then it's significant - the Italian medical authorities actually diagnosing him. But, I have not felt the need to investigate Guede's past or psyche, certainly not in the detail that you have.

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?p=636&lang=en

 

[Grinder]

My question was not a rhetorical one. I simply don't know. There seem to be lots of references and Nina Burleigh brings it up. It appears that some people including Victor Oleinikov gave an account of strange behaviour. And then there's this:

"After his arrest, these behaviors were classified as psychogenic dissociative state or Fugue State, often associated with multiple personality disorder and nearly always the result of childhood sexual and physical abuse."

If that claim is true, then it's significant - the Italian medical authorities actually diagnosing him. But, I have not felt the need to investigate Guede's past or psyche, certainly not in the detail that you have.

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?p=636&lang=en

I didn't see a reference to the Italian's diagnosing him on your link.

The quote above wasn't a quote in the article which seems based on Nina's work.

IIRC King was FOA and commented often and widely.

Can't find a hit for "Guede diagnosed"

Page 123 Nina - looks like she may be the sole original source.