South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[thaiboxerken]

However, I just read an article that the "confederate flag" has now been banned from all merchandise sold at National Park Service outlets. That means if you go to a Civil War battlefield, you can't buy a confederate flag belt buckle. That's dumb.

Why? You can always buy one from the free market.

 

[pgwenthold]

The tarrif argument. It is nonsense. It gleefully quotes CLyde Wilson, a neoconfederate. Not impressed. The tarrif in place was the 1857 tarriff which was sponser and favored the Southern states. The Morrill tariff was only passed due to the south's secession.
.

I think too many people ignore the whole "secession" aspect, and act as if that is irrelevant. In fact, it is the whole thing. In fact, it is true that the war was caused by secession, and the (initial) goal of the north was not to end slavery, but to preserve the union. Of course, the only reason the union was fractured was because the south was afraid they were going to lose slavery and therefore tried to quit, and the union was having none of it.

I seriously think that many people who defend the south actually believe that they should have been allowed to secede, and that we should view the confederacy as a legitimate independent state, like Britain. They tried that, and the question was answered: no. You lost that battle. Or war, as the case may be. You are not allowed to secede from the US without a fight. The union is not going to let it go that easily.

 

[Craig4]

Why? You can always buy one from the free market.

Yeah, if you go to Fredericksburg or Gettysburg there's all kinds of tacky Confederate and Union crap to buy outside the parks.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

What will the Confederate Civil War re-enactors Thespian Racists do now?

 

[ponderingturtle]

What will the Confederate Civil War re-enactors Thespian Racists do now?

Well there is something to that. In European WWII recreation the SS is more popular than the Wehrmacht.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Well there is something to that. In European WWII recreation the SS is more popular than the Wehrmacht.

For WWII recreation, the Nazi's had the better, cooler uniforms.

In the CW, the North had better uniforms (Dark Blue > Light Blue).

 

[Meadmaker]

Is it going to get weird where they little playsets of Civil War soldiers have to be removed because one of the toy soldiers is carrying the flag?

And I'll bet those stores carry books that have that accursed flag displayed right on the cover! Burn them, I say!

Yesterday I was busy laughing at the right wing on this issue. I was listening to talk radio and they were going on and on about those rotten people who have nothing better to do than worry about stupid flags. I found it funny, because these hosts were devoting whole shows to defending the stupid flag.

But when you see stores removing merchandise from the shelves because someone decided they had to go all holier than thou about protesting past injustices, I suddenly start having sympathy with the flag defenders.

 

[thaiboxerken]

And I'll bet those stores carry books that have that accursed flag displayed right on the cover! Burn them, I say!

Yesterday I was busy laughing at the right wing on this issue. I was listening to talk radio and they were going on and on about those rotten people who have nothing better to do than worry about stupid flags. I found it funny, because these hosts were devoting whole shows to defending the stupid flag.

But when you see stores removing merchandise from the shelves because someone decided they had to go all holier than thou about protesting past injustices, I suddenly start having sympathy with the flag defenders.

Privately owned stores can still sell those flags. What's to sympathize?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Well there is something to that. In European WWII recreation the SS is more popular than the Wehrmacht.

Only in that they are seen as an elite force, it's why most Re Enactors of British Army units want to be Paratroopers or Royal Marines.

 

[kookbreaker]

What will the Confederate Civil War re-enactors Thespian Racists do now?

When I was a reenactor some folks asked why I only did Revolutionary War and not the more populous Civil War, and my answer was: "I don't reenact wars that are still being fought."

 

[Meadmaker]

Privately owned stores can still sell those flags. What's to sympathize?

Who cares?

What is the point?

Because I think this observation strengthens my position, which is that a bunch of holier than thou busybodies are going overboard on this issue. You can still buy the merchandise, but by gum we aren't going to let anyone think that we right thinking people would ever approve of it, even if all we are doing is let you buy it in a convenient gift store. You want that awful stuff, go elsewhere for that filth! Some guy shoots up a church, and we zero in on the real problem, which is confederate flag bric-a-brac in gift shops.


Everything in those gift shops can be purchased elsewhere, so there's no need for gift shops at all. You could talk me into saying that we ought not have gift shops on National Park property. Decommercializing battlefields doesn't seem horrible to me. On the other hand, people seem to like souvenirs, and they went to the effort of visiting a battlefield, so what the heck, sell them souvenirs.


So once you have made the decision to sell them souvenirs, the question is whether a confederate battle flag belt buckle is sufficiently offensive that it simply ought not to be allowed as a souvenir of a visit to the place where it was flown for its intended purpose. Apparently someone somewhere decided they really had to register their indignation by getting that star spangled saltire off of the shelves at the gift shop.

On the other hand, whatever workshop in China that actually produces those things is probably working double time this week. There's nothing like an attempted ban on something to make sales soar.

 

[Yuchi1]

Rest assured, the epidemic display of yankee colonial arrogance in this thread isn't lost on the droves of lurkers.

Despite their supporters heroic spinmeister efforts, the fact remains the north provoked war (for the reasons previously outlined) by "invading" via Fort Moultrie.

My gggrandmother's "transfer" papers were impaled upon the end of a USA bayonet during her forcible removal from Alabama to Oklahoma ~1840 because of one reason, her race. Trying to label me with the racist, slavery defender card is a dawg that won't hunt.

 

[DavidJames]

Rest assured, the epidemic display of yankee colonial arrogance in this thread isn't lost on the droves of lurkers.

Despite their supporters heroic spinmeister efforts, the fact remains the north provoked war (for the reasons previously outlined) by "invading" via Fort Moultrie.

My gggrandmother's "transfer" papers were impaled upon the end of a USA bayonet during her forcible removal from Alabama to Oklahoma ~1840 because of one reason, her race. Trying to label me with the racist, slavery defender card is a dawg that won't hunt.

You are welcome to fly the flag used to support the defense of slavery but do so fully understanding what it means to others, regardless of what you think. That's not spin, that's reality.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Who cares?

What is the point?

Because I think this observation strengthens my position, which is that a bunch of holier than thou busybodies are going overboard on this issue. You can still buy the merchandise, but by gum we aren't going to let anyone think that we right thinking people would ever approve of it, even if all we are doing is let you buy it in a convenient gift store. You want that awful stuff, go elsewhere for that filth! Some guy shoots up a church, and we zero in on the real problem, which is confederate flag bric-a-brac in gift shops.


Everything in those gift shops can be purchased elsewhere, so there's no need for gift shops at all. You could talk me into saying that we ought not have gift shops on National Park property. Decommercializing battlefields doesn't seem horrible to me. On the other hand, people seem to like souvenirs, and they went to the effort of visiting a battlefield, so what the heck, sell them souvenirs.


So once you have made the decision to sell them souvenirs, the question is whether a confederate battle flag belt buckle is sufficiently offensive that it simply ought not to be allowed as a souvenir of a visit to the place where it was flown for its intended purpose. Apparently someone somewhere decided they really had to register their indignation by getting that star spangled saltire off of the shelves at the gift shop.

On the other hand, whatever workshop in China that actually produces those things is probably working double time this week. There's nothing like an attempted ban on something to make sales soar.

I still don't understand the sympathy or your complaints. Should symbols of hatred be sold by the government or not?

 

[DavidJames]

There's nothing like an attempted ban on something to make sales soar.

That's very true. But recognizing ******** will continue to be ******** is no reason to not do what's right.

 

[carlvs]

Everything you just wrote is wrong. Read the Artcles of Secession from each State. Read Jeff Davis's comments about an election of a Republcan and how that would require slave states to leave the Union. It's all about slavery. As far as contnuing animosity, I'd wear the animosity of someone who favored the South's cause as a badge of honor.

You should have provided the links to the documents...

No matter - an article on The Atlantic web site has them all. It makes for a rather depressing read.

Is it going to get weird where they little playsets of Civil War soldiers have to be removed because one of the toy soldiers is carrying the flag?

I can top that - Apple has removed almost ALL apps that had the flag from their App Store - including at least one well regarded Civil War strategy game .

While on one hand this illustrates the danger of depending on only one source for software, on the other this seems to be a situation where a scalpel was needed instead of a nuke...

 

[kookbreaker]

Rest assured, the epidemic display of yankee colonial arrogance in this thread isn't lost on the droves of lurkers.

Sure.

Despite their supporters heroic spinmeister efforts, the fact remains the north provoked war (for the reasons previously outlined) by "invading" via Fort Moultrie.

How does someone invade something one technically owns?

 

[pgwenthold]

How does someone invade something one technically owns?

See my comment above. It presupposes that the secession was legit. That is a premise the Union did not accept.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

If this is a symbol of The South, why are black residents not included as members of southern culture?

More to the point, I think: How many black people fly the flag?

 

[Yuchi1]

More to the point, I think: How many black people fly the flag?

Can't report the exact date but CBS' 60 Minutes did an article on the numbers of young black men in Florida that sported the BBF on vehicles, etc.

Apparently, they did so as it was (to them) a symbol of protest over a symbol or racism. Go figure.