Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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Mojo,

- We disagree about the cumulative evidence...
- I think that the strongest evidence supports the shroud being 2000 years old.

- I haven't been able to argue my case very well for numerous reasons -- that I have often explained in the past -- but, no one here takes my excuses seriously...
- To reiterate what is probably my biggest excuse: since the day before yesterday at 11:44 EST, 23 different participants of our thread have objected to, or asked questions about, what I have posted. Many of those participants, multiple times -- and many of those times with multiple questions and/or objections. I urge to respond to every different question and objection -- but responding to one tends to produce multiple new posts, many with new questions and/or objections, or significant variations on past questions and/or objections.

No, the questions, at most, are very minor variations of "what is your evidence that the Shroud is 2000 years old." In fact, many of them urge you to do what you have promised repeatedly: just provide your evidence that the shroud is 2000 years old, and not get distracted by your own attempts to divert the discussion to something else. From time to time, almost always due to your own postings that switch to these other topics, the questions have included minor versions of "how do you explain the chisel head image" or "why your logic is not logic."

Please stop this nonsense. By your own statements, you spend 3 hours a day posting here, but have yet to address the key question, or any of the few other questions that have been asked of you. The only real answer that you have provided to the question "what is your evidence that the Shroud is 2000 years old?" is that you have no direct evidence of this, and have relied instead on "circumstantial" evidence that is both largely incorrect and (even if correct) only begin to work in an argument if one first assumes the antecedent. If this is your "evidence" then this thread is done. Simply restating and restating your conviction that the evidence proves the authenticity of the Shroud will convince no one else here, and your paucity of legitimate evidence will only prove embarrassing to your argument and convince others of the opposite.
 
- I'm playing tennis against 23 opponents, each with a bucket of balls.

Not true, but if you somehow think so, just try hitting one. Evidence that the shroud is 2000 years old would be a good one to swing at. If you have a tennis rack.
 
- I'm playing tennis against 23 opponents, each with a bucket of balls.

Rubbish. There are about half a dozen posters pointing out your errors and evasions, and they are all pointing out the same errors and evasions. All you need to do is respond intelligently to any one of them. Your problem is that you have no intelligent responses to offer.
 
- I'm playing tennis against 23 opponents, each with a bucket of balls.

Oh, boo freaking hoo. This happens constently in a discussion, and we've told you how to deal with it. Repeatedly. This is no excuse.

In the time you spend telling us why you can't respond to us all, you could easily provide your evidence htat hte shroud is 2,000 years old. This self-pitty is a waste of time.
 
- I'm playing tennis against 23 opponents, each with a bucket of balls.

The thing is, each ball in those buckets is a piece of evidence against authenticity. Meanwhile, you haven't got a single ball. Looks like you've lost, quite badly.

ETA: hey, look! We've gone from baseball to tennis. What's next? Hockey, I hope!
 
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But you're only getting one question.

But it is a doozy! It gets right to the heart of his viewpoint., so he must change the subject.

I do enjoy how the metaphor went from baseball to tennis. No insult to the British or Aussies, but perhaps it reminds me a bit more of cricket, even knowing that cricket games take a tiny, tiny fraction of the time spent in this thread. Perhaps cricket's chirping? Is paint drying a sport?
 
- I'm playing tennis against 23 opponents, each with a bucket of balls.

Outrageous. Everyone is asking the same single question.

If you answer one, you answer all.

You refuse to answer anyone.

Consider an analogy. If 50 people asked you what is the result of the sum 2+2?
Do you really think you would have to answer each of those 50 questioners individually?

Or could you simply post one answer to all of those identical questions?

It might very well be that if you posted that the answer was 5, then follow-up questions might proliferate. That is not any kind of excuse for not answering the initial question which EVERYONE is asking with a single voice.

All of the participants here are screaming that even if ALL of the scientific evidence is thrown out with the baby jebus bathwater, what evidence do you have? The evidence you claim to have but will not reveal for reasons which are beyond explanation.

Even if, and it is a stupid concept, but even if everyone ignores all of the evidence, discounts it out of hand, assumes it is useless, rejects it outright and ignores it, you still cannot present any evidence for the CIQ being 2,000 years old.

Why is that?
 
All of the participants here are screaming that even if ALL of the scientific evidence is thrown out with the baby jebus bathwater, what evidence do you have? The evidence you claim to have but will not reveal for reasons which are beyond explanation.

I swear that I first read that as "beyond expiration." Must be that the speed of the thread took hold of me.
 
Forgive me, but I am not here to "laugh" at Jabba.

I have hopes (I really do) of getting through to him--or, at least, of modeling an interchange of ideas based upon evidence.
...and "those prisms make lovely colors...it's like living in a rainbow..."

Well, its people like you who makes me still believe in humanity. :) :rolleyes:

Hans
 
...
- I have only "circumstantial" evidence...
And strong evidence that it isn't.
Mojo,

- We disagree about the cumulative evidence...
- I think that the strongest evidence supports the shroud being 2000 years old.

- I haven't been able to argue my case very well for numerous reasons -- that I have often explained in the past -- but, no one here takes my excuses seriously...
- To reiterate what is probably my biggest excuse: since the day before yesterday at 11:44 EST, 23 different participants of our thread have objected to, or asked questions about, what I have posted. Many of those participants, multiple times -- and many of those times with multiple questions and/or objections. I urge to respond to every different question and objection -- but responding to one tends to produce multiple new posts, many with new questions and/or objections, or significant variations on past questions and/or objections.


What is this "strongest evidence" that supports the shroud being 2000 years old? So far you haven't presented any evidence of the shroud's age, just inferred that it must be 2000 years old because you have concluded that it is authentic.

Note, though, that evidence of the shroud's age wasn't what my post, to which you were ostensibly replying, was about. You have inserted a different quotation to the one to which I was replying. Here is what I actually posted:

-- but then, I also have only circumstantial evidence that the shroud is an imprint of a real live dead body...


And strong evidence that it isn't.


The evidence of the image itself shows that it is not the "imprint of a real live dead body". Among other things the proportions are wrong, the posture is impossible, and there is no top to the head. You are trying to use the image as evidence that the shroud is authentic and therefore 2000 years old, when pretty much everything about the image shows that it is not.

You need to drop your argument that the shroud is 2000 years old because it is authentic, and present some actual evidence that it is 2000 years old. Evidence, that is, that actually pertains to its age.
 
- Before I go any further -- in doing this, am I properly understanding one of your claims?
- I haven't been able to argue my case very well for numerous reasons -- that I have often explained in the past -- but, no one here takes my excuses seriously...
- No. I want to understand what you're saying before I try to respond to it.
- I'm playing tennis against 23 opponents, each with a bucket of balls.


I can't believe you posted four times to explain why you couldn't post once.
 
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