Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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An Italian Innocence Project Now Exists (2 lawyers to start)

Given the discussion from a few pages back that the 90 day deadline can be extended, did the other motivation reports come out within 90 days?

Just saw this post, I think its from today.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/23/opinions/knox-innocence-project/

I think Amanda wanted to get this out before the cassation motivation report came due, to emphasize the point that this tragedy is over and done with.

I read this and I get the sense its been easier to spot the characteristics of a wrongful conviction/prosecution/accusation, when it takes place in the context of another country's judicial system.

There is now an "Innocence Project" in Italy.

One might hope guiltards would read and reflect, but I think some people are just too damaged, and too far gone.
 
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This seems to be consistent with one of Vixen's claims, but I may not understand it. Vixen's claim was that the ISC acted illegally when it set aside the AK/RS conviction because all it could do was refer the case for further review to a lower court.

It seems doubtful that this was the case since it seems like the ISC didn't refer the case to a lower court and there doesn't seem to be some great constitutional dispute going on in Italy right now over the issue.

But maybe Vixen was right on this? Or maybe I don't know what that stuff Grinder quoted meant?

I wonder about this in the US. Can the supreme court find an individual innocent? Certainly courts can decide that jeopardy has attached and since a guilty verdict didn't happen the case is over against an individual. But could the US Supreme court decide on the merits of the evidence that somebody was innocent and find for a defendant in such a way that they were officially found innocent?

AIUI the only other time section 530 para 2 has been used by ISC to acquit a conviction was the Andreotti case. Andreotti had been a powerful mover and shaker in Italian politics since post-war Italy and had over 40 years office, even had a hotline to the Pope. He was a skilled diplomat, so much so, it was charged he even negotiated with mafia bosses.

Charges were slapped on him and he was convicted. Bongiornio convinced ISC to acquit him, and this they did, using the above article.

So looks like doctor's son Raff is now elevated to the heady heights of Italy's so-called greatest statesman. Well, Raff always did brag he was "honour" coded, (see Roberto Saviano for more details of this "code" in Gomorrah). Papa pulled it off. We don't know how - Bongiornio is probably the greasy palm here - but he did. Perhaps some of these guys on Santa Dominica beach.

For now.

Think about it. For example, guy robs a bank. The trial assesses the evidence and witnesses, finds "guilty" at a trial.

Defendant appeals on points of law.

Appeal court rejects appeal after an appeal hearing (assuming it is ever allowed; in the UK, very few are, as it is on limited points only, so HM Courts & Tribunals, makes sure all is watertight so appeal becomes difficult to obtain. Of course, in Italy, appeal is automatic.)

The defendant, appeals the appeal, the merits hearing already appealed and judged. (In England & Wales, permission of the High Court is needed to appeal further; Italy, it's automatic.)

Now here's the thing: the supreme court is reviewing the appeal court decision, not the lower criminal court.

Therefore, ipso facto, it cannot declare the defendant suddenly "not guilty" (assuming no "new evidence" not known of as of time of original trial, as is the case here). It is intuitively obvious it should be remitted back to the appeal court, which can extend the original trial (only in Italy!) to assess the issue in dispute and the legal point or perversity at variance.


What the Fifth Chambers have effectively done is change the law, something that is not in their remit or jurisdiction. In the UK, new laws have to go through parliament, or the House of Lords. I expect Italy has a similar legislature.

The Fifth Chamber did not have the power to acquit.

Marilyn Manson manga - lovin' "knife boy" Raff is hardly Andreotti.

This makes Italy the laughing stock of the world.
 
AIUI the only other time section 530 para 2 has been used by ISC to acquit a conviction was the Andreotti case. Andreotti had been a powerful mover and shaker in Italian politics since post-war Italy and had over 40 years office, even had a hotline to the Pope. He was a skilled diplomat, so much so, it was charged he even negotiated with mafia bosses.

Charges were slapped on him and he was convicted. Bongiornio convinced ISC to acquit him, and this they did, using the above article.

So looks like doctor's son Raff is now elevated to the heady heights of Italy's so-called greatest statesman.
...snip...

This makes Italy the laughing stock of the world.

No Vixen. it allows Raf to take his rightful place among all and including the humblest members of the human family, because everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence.

ISC has corrected a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided, were it not for the abuses of a mad prosecutor and corrupt police investigation.

Italy saved itself from disgrace. Not all the way, but Italy did some heavy lifting in returning to the civilized world with this verdict, IUAM.
 
Under what grounds?

Amanda testified under oath she had not been ill treated.

In the case precedent Numbers likes to quote, the two guys had medical evidence to back up their claim.

Amanda's claim of police brutality is as transparent an attempt to wriggle out of her heinous allegations against Patrick, of rape and murder, with concommitant two week's jail, which of itself was a blatant attempt to shift suspicion away from herself.
 
No Vixen. it allows Raf to take his rightful place among all and including the humblest members of the human family, because everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence.

ISC has corrected a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided, were it not for the abuses of a mad prosecutor and corrupt police investigation.

Italy saved itself from disgrace. Not all the way, but Italy did some heavy lifting in returning to the civilized world with this verdict, IUAM.

In law, a person is mentis compos until proven otherwise. There is no medical or legal evidence PM Mignini is mentally unbalanced.
 
Think about it. For example, guy robs a bank. The trial assesses the evidence and witnesses, finds "guilty" at a trial.

Defendant appeals on points of law.

Appeal court rejects appeal after an appeal hearing (assuming it is ever allowed; in the UK, very few are, as it is on limited points only, so HM Courts & Tribunals, makes sure all is watertight so appeal becomes difficult to obtain. Of course, in Italy, appeal is automatic.)

The defendant, appeals the appeal, the merits hearing already appealed and judged. (In England & Wales, permission of the High Court is needed to appeal further; Italy, it's automatic.)

Now here's the thing: the supreme court is reviewing the appeal court decision, not the lower criminal court.

Therefore, ipso facto, it cannot declare the defendant suddenly "not guilty" (assuming no "new evidence" not known of as of time of original trial, as is the case here). It is intuitively obvious it should be remitted back to the appeal court, which can extend the original trial (only in Italy!) to assess the issue in dispute and the legal point or perversity at variance.

You forgot one thing, though: there aren't any appeals in Italy, it's just one great big, endless trial. If that weren't the case, then we would have had a double jeopardy problem . . . remember?

In any event, the ISC has already established in this very case that it can rule on the merits if it so chooses--all it has to do is decide that the lower court's decision is "illogical" (against the great weight of the evidence)--that was the entire basis for the Chieffi court's decision to revisit the merits of Hellman. So, this ISC panel doesn't even have to go beyond this particular case to find precedent for what it has done.
 
Amanda testified under oath she had not been ill treated.

In the case precedent Numbers likes to quote, the two guys had medical evidence to back up their claim.

Amanda's claim of police brutality is as transparent an attempt to wriggle out of her heinous allegations against Patrick, of rape and murder, with concommitant two week's jail, which of itself was a blatant attempt to shift suspicion away from herself.

You don't even know that in Italy, witnesses are not sworn in, nor are they "under oath".

Also, Amanda is being prosecuted for testifying, in court, that she was indeed mistreated by the police. They filed charges against her for it.
 
Amanda testified under oath she had not been ill treated.

In the case precedent Numbers likes to quote, the two guys had medical evidence to back up their claim.

Amanda's claim of police brutality is as transparent an attempt to wriggle out of her heinous allegations against Patrick, of rape and murder, with concommitant two week's jail, which of itself was a blatant attempt to shift suspicion away from herself.

That's all well, and good, except that the Chieffi court confirmed this as the final judgment on the issue of callunnia:

The obsessive length of the interrogations, carried out during [both] day and night, by more than one person, on a young and foreign girl who at the time did not speak Italian at all well, was unaware of her own rights, did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes), and was moreover being assisted by an interpreter who — as shown by Ms. Bongiorno — did not limit herself to translating, but induced her to force herself to remember, explaining that she [Amanda] was confused in her memories, perhaps because of the trauma she experienced, makes it wholly understandable that she was in a situation of considerable psychological pressure (to call it stress seems an understatement [appare riduttivo]), enough to raise doubts about the actual spontaneity of her statements; a spontaneity which would have strangely [singolarmente] arisen in the middle of the night, after hours and hours of interrogation: the so-called spontaneous statements were made at 1:45 am (middle of the night) on 11-6-2007 (the day after the interrogation had started) and again at 5:45 am afterward, and the note was written a few hours later.
Amanda Knox, who at the beginning had no reason to be afraid, went into a state of oppression and stress precisely as a result of her interrogation and the way it was conducted.

So, who really cares if she was hit. The above is sufficiently illegal.
 
You forgot one thing, though: there aren't any appeals in Italy, it's just one great big, endless trial. If that weren't the case, then we would have had a double jeopardy problem . . . remember?

In any event, the ISC has already established in this very case that it can rule on the merits if it so chooses--all it has to do is decide that the lower court's decision is "illogical" (against the great weight of the evidence)--that was the entire basis for the Chieffi court's decision to revisit the merits of Hellman. So, this ISC panel doesn't even have to go beyond this particular case to find precedent for what it has done.

There are still practice Directions spelling out what each Instance Court can and cannot do to be followed by prosecution and defense, as well as the judges.

If the directions are not followed, this gives grounds for an appeal under procedural irregularities. For example, it allowed the judges to reject the defense's (extremely late) application to have the pillow stain tested (after deliberately not requesting it, for fear it would incriminate Raff, by his own account), because the Directions allows them, to. I couldn't see this matter in the Nencini appeal, as it was not a point of law error, anyway.
 
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There are still practice Directions spelling out what each Instance Court can and cannot do to be followed by prosecution and defense, as well as the judges.

If the directions are not followed, this gives grounds for an appeal under procedural irregularities. For example, it allowed the judges to reject the defense's (extremely late) application to have the pillow stain tested (after deliberately not requesting it, for fear it would incriminate Raff, by his own account), because the Directions allows them, too. I couldn't see this matter in the Nencini appeal, as it was not a point of law error, anyway.

Yes, well, according to Chieffi, the "Directions" are that the ISC should vacate and reverse if it finds the underlying decision to be "illogical." Since that standard has no real meaning as evidenced by Chieffi, that means that the ISC can vacate and reverse whenever it wants to.
 
You don't even know that in Italy, witnesses are not sworn in, nor are they "under oath".

Also, Amanda is being prosecuted for testifying, in court, that she was indeed mistreated by the police. They filed charges against her for it.

No I didn't know that. So there is no such thing as perjury? Amanda did make contradictory claims of police brutality which was decided by the court as covering up for her calumny against Patrick.

You note Patrick and Raff were careful not to calumniate the police. What was Amanda thinking when she went down that route? She must have known it was a serious crime. Being dumb is not a defense to breaking the law.
 
You forgot one thing, though: there aren't any appeals in Italy, it's just one great big, endless trial. If that weren't the case, then we would have had a double jeopardy problem . . . remember?

In any event, the ISC has already established in this very case that it can rule on the merits if it so chooses--all it has to do is decide that the lower court's decision is "illogical" (against the great weight of the evidence)--that was the entire basis for the Chieffi court's decision to revisit the merits of Hellman. So, this ISC panel doesn't even have to go beyond this particular case to find precedent for what it has done.

Welcome back DC, you have been missed!
 
In law, a person is mentis compos until proven otherwise. There is no medical or legal evidence PM Mignini is mentally unbalanced.

Are you joking? This maniac has proven himself a madman a hundred times over.

The Narducci Trail? Double Body swaps? Consulting Psychic mediums and relying on homeless end stage alcoholic prostitutes for his non-existant satanic sect? Absence of evidence proves a scientifically impossible clean-up?

Mignini is as mad as a hatter, well proven. Grab the giant butterfly net, bring on the straight jacket, and cart that lunatic off to the asylum - with all attendant dignity.

The funny part is, Giuttari got reinstated for the same fantasy Mignini pursued, and Mignini will end up going to jail. That's gotta hurt.
 
No I didn't know that. So there is no such thing as perjury? Amanda did make contradictory claims of police brutality which was decided by the court as covering up for her calumny against Patrick.

You note Patrick and Raff were careful not to calumniate the police. What was Amanda thinking when she went down that route? She must have known it was a serious crime. Being dumb is not a defense to breaking the law.

Yes, there is no such thing as perjury in Italy. That might sound good at first, but it is because they assume the defendant will likely be lying, so save their own skin -- which says a lot about their presumption of innocence, or lack thereof.

Patrick and Raff have both made similar claims, but neither testified in court, so maybe that is why they were not charged. More likely it is because the cops and PM just wanted to get Amanda, at all costs.

BTW, there is no such crime as Calunnia in the US, so it is not strange that Amanda would have been unaware of it. She is used to people being able to say the police hit them, if they did, without being further victimized by doing so.
 
Yes, well, according to Chieffi, the "Directions" are that the ISC should vacate and reverse if it finds the underlying decision to be "illogical." Since that standard has no real meaning as evidenced by Chieffi, that means that the ISC can vacate and reverse whenever it wants to.

That is a completely frivolous reason. All ISC is tasked to do is judge whether Nencini's reasoning was within the bounds of "a reasonable view", even if they personally disagree with it, not having seen or heard the evidence themself.

IOW it ought to have rubberstamped Nencini or explain in which way his court was egregious from a legal, perverse, procedural or "public interest" POV.
 
That is a completely frivolous reason. All ISC is tasked to do is judge whether Nencini's reasoning was within the bounds of "a reasonable view", even if they personally disagree with it, not having seen or heard the evidence themself.

IOW it ought to have rubberstamped Nencini or explain in which way his court was egregious from a legal, perverse, procedural or "public interest" POV.

Totally agree, should be coming any day now.
 
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