Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Totally agree, should be coming any day now.

Tomorrow.

 

[Vixen]

Are you joking? This maniac has proven himself a madman a hundred times over.

The Narducci Trail? Double Body swaps? Consulting Psychic mediums and relying on homeless end stage alcoholic prostitutes for his non-existant satanic sect? Absence of evidence proves a scientifically impossible clean-up?

Mignini is as mad as a hatter, well proven. Grab the giant butterfly net, bring on the straight jacket, and cart that lunatic off to the asylum - with all attendant dignity.

The funny part is, Giuttari got reinstated for the same fantasy Mignini pursued, and Mignini will end up going to jail. That's gotta hurt.

There was a serial killer/s roaming Italy butchering women, was there not. Why wouldn't such a maniac/s be someone who's extremely anti-social, or even organised?

Some schoolgirl in the US randomly killed a few people as she said she "didn't like Mondays".

Who is the looney tunes here?

 

[Numbers]

From Pete of the dark side - just for you Numbers - translation of part of suit against Maori or so says PQ.

the judgment of the [Florence] court of remand would have been impugnable only for reasons not regarding the points already decided by the Court of Cassation [in 2013], according to the very clear disposition of Article 628, second paragraph, Criminal Procedure Code.

From this it follows that the Fifth Chamber of the Supreme Court, called on to decide the merits of the appeals brought by the accused against the decision of the court remanded to, would have had to consider as inadmissible the [RS and AK] appeals presented in violation of the second paragraph of Article 628 Criminal Procedure Code and, in any case, would have had to rigorously conform with the points already decided by the First Chamber and with all the questions of law decided by the same, -- the latter constraint, as constituted by the jurisdiction of sole legitimacy, being understood --, for defect pursuant to Article 606 Criminal Procedure Code and limited to the grounds proposed by the appellants (Article 609 Criminal Procedure Code).

.... the Court of Cassation cannot, therefore, ever adopt decisions on the merits and issue orders of acquittal under Article 530, second paragraph, Criminal Procedure Code.

....two chambers of the same Court of Cassation, the First (the one competent for proceedings in homicide matters, whose decision of annulment is definitive and who had identified and decided questions of law in a definitive and un-retractable manner) and the Fifth (who would have had to decide the appeals presented only on grounds of legitimacy of the defendants’, constrained by what had already been definitively decided by the First) have handed down two absolutely divergent decisions and the second had annulled the Florentine decision, positively excluding any remand and acquitting the defendants pursuant to Article 530, second paragraph, Criminal Procedure Code.

The Fifth Chamber’s reasons have not yet been handed down and we await their contents becoming known. It cannot be denied, in any case, that the decision of the Fifth Chamber, is a decision that is not only absolutely unforeseeable and anomalous but that it positively constitutes a unicum [singular object in defiance] of the jurisprudence of the Court of legitimacy.

In any case, Amanda Knox has already been definitively convicted for the calunnia against Patrick Diya Lumumba.

Of the above, this is formally true in Italian law.

I had trouble understanding the remainder of the material you quote, except that it claims there is a divergence between the two CSC judgments, apparently that of the Chieffi panel (1st Chamber) and Marasca panel (5th Chamber). But the Chieffi panel did not explicitly find Knox and Sollecito guilty, although they certainly weighted their annulment of Hellmann to indicate that they were seeking a guilty verdict from the remand panel. This itself, in the arbitrary way the Chieffi panel did it, would be highly questionable by ECHR. The Marasca panel, as far as I am able to tell, followed Italian procedural law correctly. They are governed by the same CPP laws that the Chieffi panel was (ideally) governed by. The Marasca panel motivation report will make their judgment and its compliance or any lack thereof more clear.

I am not aware of any institution or office in Italy that can alter a CSC final ruling except the Italian Supreme Constitutional Court and, in a sense, the Italian Parliament (which can change the law, but not necessarily a specific ruling). The ECHR is, of course, an international institution that can, at least in theory and the solemn treaty signed by Italy, get Italy to change a CSC ruling. It has done so many times in the past.

 

[carbonjam72]

There was a serial killer/s roaming Italy butchering women, was there not. Why wouldn't such a maniac/s be someone who's extremely anti-social, or even organised?

Some schoolgirl in the US randomly killed a few people as she said she "didn't like Mondays".

Who is the looney tunes here?

Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi, building on the work of Margaret Naab, very likely correctly identified the Monster of Florence serial killer as a gentleman named Antonio Vinci, in their book, "The Monster of Florence".

To this day, there is a rag with bloody drops recovered from one of the murder scenes, the 'scopetti rag', which may well be susceptible to modern DNA analysis.

Does Italy show any inclination to test that bloody rag for DNA?

No. But they did recently affirm the promotion of Michele Giuttari, for his extraordinary contribution to the case. (But he had help from a homeless prostitute spinning tales of satan. And he did manage to convict 2 innocent people, Vanni and Lotti, so there's that in his favor.)

Come on Vixen, its over. Move on.

 

[Diocletus]

That is a completely frivolous reason. All ISC is tasked to do is judge whether Nencini's reasoning was within the bounds of "a reasonable view", even if they personally disagree with it, not having seen or heard the evidence themself.

IOW it ought to have rubberstamped Nencini or explain in which way his court was egregious from a legal, perverse, procedural or "public interest" POV.

Not really. According to Chieffi, all they have to do is consider all of the evidence osmotically and decide if Nencini is full of crap.

 

[Numbers]

This seems to be consistent with one of Vixen's claims, but I may not understand it. Vixen's claim was that the ISC acted illegally when it set aside the AK/RS conviction because all it could do was refer the case for further review to a lower court.
It seems doubtful that this was the case since it seems like the ISC didn't refer the case to a lower court and there doesn't seem to be some great constitutional dispute going on in Italy right now over the issue.

But maybe Vixen was right on this? Or maybe I don't know what that stuff Grinder quoted meant?

I wonder about this in the US. Can the supreme court find an individual innocent? Certainly courts can decide that jeopardy has attached and since a guilty verdict didn't happen the case is over against an individual. But could the US Supreme court decide on the merits of the evidence that somebody was innocent and find for a defendant in such a way that they were officially found innocent?

This is false, because CPP Article 620 explicitly gives the CSC the power to annul cases without referral "in any other case in which the CSC believes the referral is superfluous" or when "the offense is extinguished or if prosecution should not have been started or continued". I wrote out the relevant clauses in greater detail in an earlier post.

In terms of the US Supreme Court, it does not function as a court of cassation (ultimate appeal) like a European CSC does. Its self-defined function is primarily (not solely) to judge if Constitutional rights were violated, not whether someone is guilty or innocent; if it judges a Constitutional violation, SCOTUS may send the case back for action by a lower court - typically, the appropriate US Court of Appeals.

 

[Numbers]

ECHR is dead in the water.

The readers of this forum will note that no citations are given for this statement.

It is not even clear what Vixen is referring to by the phrase "dead in the water".

 

[Katody Matrass]

Papa pulled it off. We don't know how - Bongiornio is probably the greasy palm here - but he did. Perhaps some of these guys on Santa Dominica beach.

Ask around the guilter folk - they know. It was the Masons doing their dark rituals, just ask Machiavelli.

How is it possible if not for some satanic influence ? The evidence was so strong, not just manga but also Marilyn Manson

 

[carbonjam72]

Just saw this post, I think its from today.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/23/opinions/knox-innocence-project/

I think Amanda wanted to get this out before the cassation motivation report came due, to emphasize the point that this tragedy is over and done with.

I read this and I get the sense its been easier to spot the characteristics of a wrongful conviction/prosecution/accusation, when it takes place in the context of another country's judicial system.

There is now an "Innocence Project" in Italy.

One might hope guiltards would read and reflect, but I think some people are just too damaged, and too far gone.

Curious if anyone else saw this, before the thread got distracted again...

 

[carbonjam72]

Ask around the guilter folk - they know. It was the Masons doing their dark rituals, just ask Machiavelli.

How is it possible if not for some satanic influence ? The evidence was so strong, not just manga but also Marilyn Manson

Or even, Marilyn Manga!

 

[Katody Matrass]

There was a serial killer/s roaming Italy butchering women, was there not. Why wouldn't such a maniac/s be someone who's extremely anti-social, or even organised?

Some schoolgirl in the US randomly killed a few people as she said she "didn't like Mondays".

Who is the looney tunes here?

LOL, way to miss a point
According to your favorite detective prosecutor duo it was not a serial killer but a satanic conspiracy doing their dark magic

 

[Numbers]

....
The Fifth Chamber did not have the power to acquit.....

This statement in the quote above is false.

CPP Article 620 Annulment without referral.

1. In addition to the cases specifically provided for by the law, the CSC shall deliver a judgment of annulment without referral: (L) in any other case in which the CSC believes the referral is superfluous or may proceed to the determination of the sentence or take the necessary decisions.

Source: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Curious if anyone else saw this, before the thread got distracted again...

Thanks for the link!


If anyone didn't bother to click, let me tell you it's an excellent new article about Innocence Network by Amanda Knox herself:

Amanda Knox: Keep fighting for your innocence

 

[carbonjam72]

LOL, way to miss a point
According to your favorite detective prosecutor duo it was not a serial killer but a satanic conspiracy doing their dark magic

In fairness, it was Pacciani and his two assistants Vanni the mailman, and Lotti the village idiot who apparently was able to get time off from his usual gig.

They were not actually satanists & masons themselves, but rather, sex killer mutilators for hire.

I can't do it. I can't pretend this is funny. One of the most singularly brutal serial killers in modern history is being protected by the Italian justice system, while those who exposed him are being prosecuted.

And all because the Italian concept of honor, doesn't permit admitting mistakes.

I grieve for Italy, I truly do.

 

[Katody Matrass]

In fairness, it was Pacciani and his two assistants Vanni the mailman, and Lotti the village idiot who apparently was able to get time off from his usual gig.

They were not actually satanists & masons themselves, but rather, sex killer mutilators for hire.

I can't do it. I can't pretend this is funny. One of the most singularly brutal serial killers in modern history is being protected by the Italian justice system, while those who exposed him are being prosecuted.

And all because the Italian concept of honor, doesn't permit admitting mistakes.

I grieve for Italy, I truly do.

"For hire" is the key. Hired and directed by a powerful conspiracy of satanists (or masons, according to Machiavelli) who needed body parts for their rituals.

Didn't Mignini accuse 20+ people of that conspiracy, swapping bodies etc?

 

[Numbers]

Amanda testified under oath she had not been ill treated.
In the case precedent Numbers likes to quote, the two guys had medical evidence to back up their claim.

Amanda's claim of police brutality is as transparent an attempt to wriggle out of her heinous allegations against Patrick, of rape and murder, with concommitant two week's jail, which of itself was a blatant attempt to shift suspicion away from herself.

This is false. Witnesses are not under oath in Italy. They are made aware of the consequences of perjury, however.

Amanda was a defendant and in Italy, while defendants are not required to tell the truth in their testimony, I am confident she in fact reported the truth about the police mistreating and abusing her. Her testimony was consistent with her Nov. 6 and 7 Memoriales 1 and 2.

That she accused the police of a crime is clear, because she was prosecuted for calunnia against the police as a result of her statements in the 2009 trial.

The ECHR does not require that a person be physically damaged in a medically obvious way in order to find a violation of Convention Article 3.

Amanda's coerced false statements during the police interrogation and subsequent interrogation (resulting in an alleged "spontaneous statement") by PM Mignini were in fact incriminating to her. They formed the basis of Mignini's arrest warrant. He had no other rational significant evidence against her, Raffaele, or Patrick.

 

[carbonjam72]

"For hire" is the key. Hired and directed by a powerful conspiracy of satanists (or masons, according to Machiavelli) who needed body parts for their rituals.

Didn't Mignini accuse 20+ people of that conspiracy, swapping bodies etc?

Since you're asking, this is the story on 'The Satanic Fairy Tales of Michele Giuttari; How the devil Came to Florence'. This is how it all got started. This is why Amanda and Raf were put on trial at all.

http://groundreport.com/?p=5118013

The prosecution of Amanda and Raf was never about them, just a continuation of Mad Mignini's batcrap crazy tea party.

 

[Numbers]

You forgot one thing, though: there aren't any appeals in Italy, it's just one great big, endless trial. If that weren't the case, then we would have had a double jeopardy problem . . . remember?

In any event, the ISC has already established in this very case that it can rule on the merits if it so chooses--all it has to do is decide that the lower court's decision is "illogical" (against the great weight of the evidence)--that was the entire basis for the Chieffi court's decision to revisit the merits of Hellman. So, this ISC panel doesn't even have to go beyond this particular case to find precedent for what it has done.

This is actually Italian law: CPP Art. 606 1. (e) The appeal to the CSC may be lodged if its based on the following arguments: the grounds of the judgment are lacking, contradictory or manifestly illogical, when the defect results from the text of the appealed decision or from other documents of the proceedings specified in the arguments for the appeal to the CSC.

So there was no legal issue with the Chieffi panel using "manifestly illogical" as an argument to annul Hellmann; the problem was that what they called "manifestly illogical" was fully logical, while their arguments were arbitrary, presumed guilt, and violated Convention fair-trial rights.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Since you're asking, this is the story on 'The Satanic Fairy Tales of Michele Giuttari; How the devil Came to Florence'. This is how it all got started. This is why Amanda and Raf were put on trial at all.

http://groundreport.com/?p=5118013

The prosecution of Amanda and Raf was never about them, just a continuation of Mad Mignini's batcrap crazy tea party.

Thanks for that!
I hope Vixen peruses the link, too.

 

[Numbers]

There are still practice Directions spelling out what each Instance Court can and cannot do to be followed by prosecution and defense, as well as the judges.

If the directions are not followed, this gives grounds for an appeal under procedural irregularities. For example, it allowed the judges to reject the defense's (extremely late) application to have the pillow stain tested (after deliberately not requesting it, for fear it would incriminate Raff, by his own account), because the Directions allows them, to. I couldn't see this matter in the Nencini appeal, as it was not a point of law error, anyway.

Show these "Directions". The actual law, CPP Article 190, Right to evidence, states:

1. Evidence shall be admitted upon request of a party. The judge shall decide without delay by issuing an order, excluding any evidence that is not allowed by law or manifestly superfluous or irrelevant.

Since when is a putative semen stain manifestly irrelevant or superfluous in a case of sexual assault and murder? That was the judge's ruling, it had nothing to do with timing. And it was a clearly arbitrary and unreasonable ruling.