South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Vortigern99]

If they are flying the flag, they are racist or stupid. I defend their right to be racist or stupid, though. But I also defend my right to state that they are racist or stupid for flying the flag.

You're mistaken. You don't know these people. The flag symbolizes something different to them than what you insist it means.

Oh, and I do get to tell them what their flag symbolizes because it was widely used to symbolize the fight for slavery rights.

I've highlighted the key word for you.

 

[Cleon]

Yes, I understand that. But the average Confederate soldier -- poor, apolitical, under-educated -- had no stake in that claim. Able-bodied Southerners who didn't fight in the war were hunted down and executed. If they fought under the battle flag it doesn't mean they supported slavery.

And just because a German citizen fought for the Wermacht in WWII, this doesn't make him a Nazi.

But that doesn't mean that Germany should fly the Swastika in front of the Reichstag.

You don't get to tell people what their symbol means. It's up to them to decide.

Is the irony in this statement intentional?

I don't fly the flag and never will. But some of my relatives do -- people who are not racist or hateful towards African-Americans -- and I'm defending their right to do so.

Their right to do so is not in question.

 

[pgwenthold]

You're mistaken. You don't know these people. The flag symbolizes something different to them than what you insist it means.

Oh, I know the claims. It is "heritage, not hate." But what heritage is that? Southern culture? What is the culture of the south represented by the Confederate flag? That rebellious spirit of trying to quit the country when you don't get your own way? As a parent, I call that a "tantrum" and we don't look kindly on the children that do it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I agree the Confederate battle flag/memorial banner should be removed from public institutions and government works. But labeling every person who flies it as racist and hateful is a mistake. The flag can stand for a kind of regional patriotism and pride in Southern culture, without necessarily indicating support for white supremacy. It's been used by extremists to symbolize hatred and the desire to oppress, which is a damn shame, but not every person who displays the flag feels that way. It's more complicated than that.

And in the immortal words of George Wallace who raised that flag over the capital for the first time, "Segregation now, Segregation forever!"

Clearly the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other though.

 

[ponderingturtle]

How does the battle flag of the Confederate army stand for Southern culture?

Well it seems popular with white southern culture, and how else do you prevent yourself from being lumped in with the blacks?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, I understand that. But the average Confederate soldier -- poor, apolitical, under-educated -- had no stake in that claim. Able-bodied Southerners who didn't fight in the war were hunted down and executed. If they fought under the battle flag it doesn't mean they supported slavery. Today the Confederate flag is used as a symbol of the White South, not as a continuation of an unjust rebellion fought and lost 15 decades ago. To you the flag symbolizes hatred and racial oppression, and I understand and acknowledge that. But to many of those who fly it, the flag represents a kind of scrappy individualism and pride in one's culture of birth. You don't get to tell people what their symbol means. It's up to them to decide.

Fixed it for you

 

[logger]

Well, no actually, the first two show what happens when police go wild and attack people in their own home.

Lol
No, actually they were both criminals, contrast that to the folks in Charleston.

Care to discuss the white supremacy flag?

For what? Its kinda obvious. Of course liberals on here have made four pages out of it. To bad your side was instrumental in the confederacy, the flag and institutional racism, just ask Bill. I'm glad you and Travis have forgiven him for celebrating the flag in question.

 

[Vortigern99]

And just because a German citizen fought for the Wermacht in WWII, this doesn't make him a Nazi.

But that doesn't mean that Germany should fly the Swastika in front of the Reichstag.

My opening statement was: "I agree the Confederate battle flag/memorial banner should be removed from public institutions and government works." So we concur there.

Is the irony in this statement intentional?

It's not meant to be ironic, and I don't know what you mean. Non-racist Southerners who fly the Confederate flag have a different idea about what it means than you do. It's not up to you to inflexibly dictate the flag's symbolism to those who choose to fly it.

 

[logger]

I agree the Confederate battle flag/memorial banner should be removed from public institutions and government works. But labeling every person who flies it as racist and hateful is a mistake. The flag can stand for a kind of regional patriotism and pride in Southern culture, without necessarily indicating support for white supremacy. It's been used by extremists to symbolize hatred and the desire to oppress, which is a damn shame, but not every person who displays the flag feels that way. It's more complicated than that.

Don't sweat it Vort, the silly libs on here hate the American flag too.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You're mistaken. You don't know these people. The flag symbolizes something different to them than what you insist it means.

Doesn't matter what they claim it means to them. It is still a symbol of racism.

 

[The Greater Fool]

I can now fly the Nazi flag, not as a symbol of hatred, no, but as a symbol of my appreciation for German culture. I love Wagner, Oktoberfest, and world domination. Hatred of Jews, gays, and gypsies is not what the Nazi Flag nor German culture are about. Heck, most of the people that fought and lived under the Nazi flag were just hard working Joe's like you and me, just trying to get along in the world. Why should we not remember, nay, celebrate those ancestors who died fighting under the Nazi flag by flying that same flag in memorial?

 

[ponderingturtle]

My opening statement was: "I agree the Confederate battle flag/memorial banner should be removed from public institutions and government works." So we concur there.



It's not meant to be ironic, and I don't know what you mean. Non-racist Southerners who fly the Confederate flag have a different idea about what it means than you do. It's not up to you to inflexibly dictate the flag's symbolism to those who choose to fly it.

And they send a clear message about how much they are willing to associate with blacks and what they think of those who do. This might not be the message they intend to send but it is going to be very common.

If say one of their kids brought home a black boy/girl friend what message do you think they would get from it? though I guess they may have raised their kids better than doing that.

 

[Checkmite]

Yes, I understand that. But the average Confederate soldier -- poor, apolitical, under-educated -- had no stake in that claim.

The flag was not made to represent individual soldiers who may or may not have "had a stake" in supporting slavery, or who may or may not have been compelled to fight. The flag represents the Confederacy.

 

[thaiboxerken]

My opening statement was: "I agree the Confederate battle flag/memorial banner should be removed from public institutions and government works." So we concur there.



It's not meant to be ironic, and I don't know what you mean. Non-racist Southerners who fly the Confederate flag have a different idea about what it means than you do. It's not up to you to inflexibly dictate the flag's symbolism to those who choose to fly it.

It's not up to them to choose what the meaning of the racist flag means to me. The Confederacy fought to maintain the right to own slaves.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Roof certainly started something, but I don't think this is what he had in mind: Walmart, Sears, eBay to stop selling Confederate flag merchandise.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's not up to them to choose what the meaning of the racist flag means to me. The Confederacy fought to maintain the right to own slaves.

And of course for the supremacy of the white race, that was right their in their constitution.

 

[NoahFence]

You're mistaken. You don't know these people. The flag symbolizes something different to them than what you insist it means.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

I've highlighted the key word for you.

Good to know its all in the past. Like 5 days ago past.

 

[Mumbles]

Lol
No, actually they were both criminals, contrast that to the folks in Charleston.


For what? Its kinda obvious. Of course liberals on here have made four pages out of it. To bad your side was instrumental in the confederacy, the flag and institutional racism, just ask Bill. I'm glad you and Travis have forgiven him for celebrating the flag in question.

Heh. As a matter of fact, you are correct, people like me were definitely instrumental in the confederacy. In fact, the people who organized it repeatedly stated that they were going to war because they wanted to enslave the people like me. It's in the news now because some terrorist walked into a church and murdered nine people like me, in order to terrorize...me, actually. That's exactly why I despise the people who fly that flag.

 

[pgwenthold]

My opening statement was: "I agree the Confederate battle flag/memorial banner should be removed from public institutions and government works." So we concur there.



It's not meant to be ironic, and I don't know what you mean. Non-racist Southerners who fly the Confederate flag have a different idea about what it means than you do. It's not up to you to inflexibly dictate the flag's symbolism to those who choose to fly it.

But, as I asked above, what's the logic in trying to co-opt the flag to send a different message? You claimed that it was a "shame" that the flag of the confederacy was being used to symbolize white supremacy. But why is that a shame? The objective of the confederacy was the preservation of slavery and white supremacy, so why shouldn't their battle flag symbolize that? And so what?

It is a "shame" that the Nazis took the innocuous swastika and turned it into a symbol of hate. That doesn't mean it makes any sense to fly the swastika and claim, "It represents something other than hate to me."

 

[nelsondogg]

Yes, I understand that. But the average Confederate soldier -- poor, apolitical, under-educated -- had no stake in that claim. Able-bodied Southerners who didn't fight in the war were hunted down and executed. If they fought under the battle flag it doesn't mean they supported slavery.

I disagree. Just because they were poor and didn't own slaves doesn't mean that they did not dream of some day being successful enough to own one of their own. It was the Confederate version of the American dream of owning a house with the white picket fence.