Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

1. There are apparently ethical(?) or practical(? fear of being caught and punished) limits to how the police and prosecution conducted their official misconduct. Much of it involved suppression of evidence; otherwise, relying on "happy accidents" of contamination, intentional misunderstandings of words and actions, soliciting or coercing false statements, etc. The bra clasp might be an example of planting evidence, but it may be another happy accident.

Ahh, happy accidents. So not framing.

2. I don't know. You should ask Rudi.

That seems a bit snarky. The point is that Rudi is cast as a liar that covered his guilt with his narrative. He clearly knew that "sperm" had been found from his reading and of course would have known he had ejaculated so the question is why wouldn't he incorporate his deposit into his narrative. I think the most logical reason is that it wasn't his.

3. The shoe print appears to be made in the putative semen. It shows up under Crimescope lighting. (This lighting may be triggering the natural fluorescence of the semen under the proper illumination.)

Source for 3: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

If the shoe print is on top then that doesn't prove the semen was fresh. If the semen was on top of the shoe then it was definitely made during the murder event.

 

[carbonjam72]

Is there a cite for this somewhere?

Whatever she's referring to, we don't seem to have any discovery.

I don't have the cite, but I remember seeing the dialogue, and CDV complaining. The cop was literally looking to Napoleone on how to answer questions.

Amazing the farce this case was, ECHR should just stop trials in Italy from occurring without an ECHR rep in the room at all times.

 

[Kauffer]

Possible Freudian slip by lead detective Monica Napoleoni?

Lead Detective Monica Napoleoni testified Guede’s DNA was found on the pillow.

You mean that she had a powerful, repressed desire to tell the truth and did so unwittingly?

 

[Grinder]

You mean that she had a powerful, repressed desire to tell the truth and did so unwittingly?

I was just giving the whole quote from the case site you used. As usual I'd say incompetence for that testimony. Why would they hide Rudi's DNA at that spot?

Now if it was a fourth man that would be something to hide.

 

[Kauffer]

I was just giving the whole quote from the case site you used. As usual I'd say incompetence for that testimony. Why would they hide Rudi's DNA at that spot?
Now if it was a fourth man that would be something to hide.

There is a pattern of behaviour in the case of using obfuscation as evidence and strategy. If the stain result isn't revealed it can still be held to be Raffaele's. If the luminol/Tmb results aren't subject to confirmatory testing for blood, then blood, technically isn't absolutely ruled out. If the EDFs aren't disclosed then the DNA results for clasp and knife cannot be completely squashed. If the TOD can be squeezed out a little, a window can be created for Amanda and Raffaele to have time to commit the murder, despite Amelie and Narruto. Etc etc.

It's how you create the illusion of circumstantial evidence that isn't worthy of the name. Or, if you will, they do half the work and get twice the benefit.

 

[RWVBWL]

Bill you have talked about Barbie making money off this case and I believe you think she made the most. Many people have made money and if you have a list of how much each made I'd like to see it. The person that went for the money first and had the "award winning" crime novel was Dempsey. Darkness Descending was one of the first books out. Nina's book seems to be holding more value. Vogt, Pisa and other reporters made money as well.

Even if Barbie made the most money, notwithstanding Amanda, that doesn't mean she isn't a dope. Having watched her on CNN etc. she sounded dopey and if you saw the Australian Dateline show with Barbie, Vogt, Pisa and the Italian woman correspondent you would have seen her at her dopey best.

At any rate she wasn't in Mignini's corner except that she. like many, bow to any authority figure.

I seem to recall that Candace Dempsey
worked pretty close with Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock, right?

Grinder,
surely you do not discount and wave off the impact Sfarzo's reporting
had about this case we've discussed for years, or do you?

Heck,
Dempsey's blog and book has some great info in there.
As did Perugia Shock...

 

[Numbers]

....

Why if Rudi ejaculated didn't he incorporate that into his story since the media was reporting "semen" found?

I've forgotten, is the semen stain covering the shoe print?

1st highlight dates the semen to the time of the attack, in Rudy's shoes, so I'd say its established that the stain belongs to Rudy. Absent a test eliminating Rudy, I'd say it has to be Rudy.

2nd hilite, as I once mentioned to Grinder's amusement, since there was only one set of footprints in Meredith's wet blood, if the semen stain is from a second person, he would have to be shooting his gobbies from the hallway, and with pretty good aim, it should be said.

IIRC, the shoe stepped into the wet semen and smushed it into the shape of the treads on the bottom of Rudy's sneakers. It's virtually the equivalent of a royal decree in olden times being sealed with a wax ring to verify authorship. I don't see much waffle room here, but YMMV...

....

2. I don't know. You should ask Rudi.

3. The shoe print appears to be made in the putative semen. It shows up under Crimescope lighting. (This lighting may be triggering the natural fluorescence of the semen under the proper illumination.)

Source for 3: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Also, spilling semen under the murder victim looks a lot more like its associated with a criminal assault, than a consensual date. The circumstance of the finding of semen, makes it being Rudy's, a little less plausible than the rest of Rudy's story of consensual sex on a date.

2. Rudi might not have realized that his spill could have forensic significance. Or maybe he just felt that admitting to having his semen on the pillow under the victim was too incriminating. The police certainly helped him by not publicly discussing the significance of the stain or admitting to having tested it, if indeed they did.

Again, Rudy (poor, poor Rudi) would know his reasons for presenting his story as he did.

 

[Numbers]

....
If the shoe print is on top then that doesn't prove the semen was fresh. If the semen was on top of the shoe then it was definitely made during the murder event.

The shoe print is a shoe print in semen (shows up under Crimescope lighting). It consists of semen in a pattern of partial circles.

It's the same idea as a shoe print in blood. That would consist of blood in a pattern.

Check the source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

 

[RWVBWL]

The problem with this is that there is a partial shoe print that appears to match Guede's shoe sole pattern in one of the putative semen stain segments.

There is the possibility that the donor could have been a second male attacker.

Seems highly unlikely that it was Meredith's boyfriend because of the shoe print.

The police were not, as far as is known, fabricating evidence, but rather relying on DNA contamination - probably ubiquitous at a relatively high level in Stefanoni's lab - manipulating testing methods, and misinterpreting data and evidence (including innocent statements and actions) - and soliciting or coercing false statements - to construct a narrative of guilt against Knox and Sollecito and, initially, Lumumba.

Here's the pillow case:

Here is a probable semen stain,
as seen on Perugia Shock:

Here's the wet semen stain, found on the side of Meredith.

The wet stain was stepped in somewhere else
and then transferred onto the pillowcase,
for there is no glob of semen here,
just shoe rings, right?

The wet stain did not come from the semen stain on the edge of the pillowcase,
for I believe that we should then have seen the smeared imprint of the shoe sole in it.

So were was the wet semen stain that Guede stepped into
and then transferred near the side of Meredith on the her pillow
that shows this stain to be crime related?

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,
surely you do not discount and wave off the impact Sfarzo's reporting
had about this case we've discussed for years, or do you?

I loved his blog and the comment section, which one of the only places that both sides could comment until the PGP came on and ruined it with page long posts of books and plays.

You may remember me there - I was the one posting as anonymous.

Dempsey not so much. For me she early, early on took the role of a cheerleader and ingratiated herself with the family here and focused on making money off the tragedy.

 

[Kauffer]

The shoe print is a shoe print in semen (shows up under Crimescope lighting). It consists of semen in a pattern of partial circles.

It's the same idea as a shoe print in blood. That would consist of blood in a pattern.

Check the source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Wasn't Kercher's body lying on top of this print? Does Vinci actually come to any conclusions with regard to the identity of the substance and dynamics of the creation of the print?

 

[carbonjam72]

Here's the pillow case:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=8949[/qimg]


Here is a probable semen stain,
as seen on Perugia Shock:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=8942[/qimg]


Here's the wet semen stain, found on the side of Meredith.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=8943[/qimg]


The wet stain was stepped in somewhere else
and then transferred onto the pillowcase,
for there is no glob of semen here,
just shoe rings, right?


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=8945[/qimg]


The wet stain did not come from the semen stain on the edge of the pillowcase,
for I believe that we should then have seen the smeared imprint of the shoe sole in it.

So were was the wet semen stain that Guede stepped into
and then transferred near the side of Meredith on the her pillow
that shows this stain to be crime related?

Couldn't the semen just been dropped, and then Rudy just stepped on it right where it fell? Isn't that the most likely explanation?

Why would you suggest it came from somewhere else? Any similar tracks leading to it, or away? I don't get the reason for suggesting an unusual explanation for some thing I would think is pretty straight forward.

Are you still of the opinion there were two or more assailants? In the murder room, or as lookouts outside?

 

[Grinder]

2. Rudi might not have realized that his spill could have forensic significance. Or maybe he just felt that admitting to having his semen on the pillow under the victim was too incriminating. The police certainly helped him by not publicly discussing the significance of the stain or admitting to having tested it, if indeed they did.

Again, Rudy (poor, poor Rudi) would know his reasons for presenting his story as he did.

Really he wouldn't know that his semen would have forensic significance. Fail.

He knew it and went on about it on the Skype call. It makes no sense that he wouldn't cover the discovery with a story.

Strange you suddenly can't speculate but suggest Rudi should be asked.

It still could be someone else's and Rudi stepped in it.

While I accept that the stain has a shoe print in it, I can't see it myself.

 

[Grinder]

There is a pattern of behaviour in the case of using obfuscation as evidence and strategy. If the stain result isn't revealed it can still be held to be Raffaele's. If the luminol/Tmb results aren't subject to confirmatory testing for blood, then blood, technically isn't absolutely ruled out. If the EDFs aren't disclosed then the DNA results for clasp and knife cannot be completely squashed. If the TOD can be squeezed out a little, a window can be created for Amanda and Raffaele to have time to commit the murder, despite Amelie and Narruto. Etc etc.

It's how you create the illusion of circumstantial evidence that isn't worthy of the name. Or, if you will, they do half the work and get twice the benefit.

Reasonable for sure.

ETA - but the prosecution never mentioned the stain, why?

 

[RWVBWL]

Couldn't the semen just been dropped, and then Rudy just stepped on it right where it fell? Isn't that the most likely explanation?

Why would you suggest it came from somewhere else? Any similar tracks leading to it, or away? I don't get the reason for suggesting an unusual explanation for some thing I would think is pretty straight forward.

Are you still of the opinion there were two or more assailants? In the murder room, or as lookouts outside?

Hi Carbonjam72,
The hottie that is in my avatar is my new chick,
28, luvs to make love, anytime.

Lately I've been spillin' a lot of that stuff that Dr. Stefanoni wanted tested,
it just goes everywhere.

There should be more than just a small stain if a young dude ejaculated,
in my experienced opinion, hahaha.


As most males don't just ejaculate in 1 small spot,
surely Guede too, if it was his, shot his j*zz everywhere.

I doubt the stain on the edge of the pillow was stepped in by Guede's Nike's,
the stuff woulda been smeared all around,
instead it is outlined well enough to also see a connecting trail between the 2 bigger stains.

For he stepped in 1 of these puddles with his left foot -(I believe?) sneaker then left the wet imprint on the left side of Meredith's body as she lay dying or dead on her back, with her left hand upraised for some reason.


But I believe it was not the stain on the edge of the pillow case,
which was IIRC, found below and between Miss Kercher's sprawled open legs...

It's not poor, poor Rudy.
It's Poor, Poor Meredith.

 

[Ken Dine]

The discussion of the downstairs flat is, IMO, not irrelevant at all. The suppression of the evidence from the downstairs flat is evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct justice and commit official misconduct by the police and prosecutor. The aim of the official misconduct has been to minimize the role of Rudy Guede in his crime, the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, while attempting to construct, wrongfully, a case against two innocent persons, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

So true!

In addition to claiming to find animal blood in the downstairs apartment, the police also claimed that early reports of blood found on Filomena's broken window eventually also turned out to be animal blood, but they never said which type of animal blood it was?

Too many coincidences – over many years of living I've never seen any blood on any of my windows, and I've always had a cat or two around (house & feral), and no cat has ever bloodied up my house - pee, poop & barf, YES, but no blood.

Yet, animal blood was (supposedly) found in both apartments the day after a rather bloody murder?

In any event, this is one of the 1st UK accounts of the case out of Rome mentioning blood on Filomena's window:

John Hooper in Rome
Friday 2 November 2007

[ ]

Reports last night said that further bloodstains were discovered on the frame of the broken window, and a handkerchief was found near a railing by a road that runs near the house.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/03/italy.ukcrime

Granted, as to be expected that early story had many factual errors. Nevertheless, clearly the police quickly found semen on the pillow, blood on Filomena's window, and African hairs on Meredith's duvet and purse, and those items were quickly suppressed (or spun or ignored), among many other evidentiary items, likely since all these items related to Guede instead of to Amanda & Raffaele, and seemingly the police & Mignini were trying to reduce Guede to being a bit-player in their sexual fantasy murder:

Why are there no traces of Rudy Guede in the break-in room?

Only 5 samples were collected from the bedroom, in other words, it was barely tested. Two of the samples, reps 176 & 177 were from the floor which strangely weren’t photographed and one was from the rock which the defense asked to be tested, however only 1 trace was extracted. Requests for further testing were denied. If they had of done 30-40 tests including from the tossed clothes then chances are they would have found Guede’s DNA. It also begs the question: If Knox and Sollecito staged the burglary, why did the Scientific Police have no interest in proving their presence in the room? The samples tested were:

Rep 169 – 1 test on the rock.
Rep.176 – Sample of presumed blood substance, revealed by luminol.
Rep.177 – Sample of presumed blood substance, revealed by luminol.
Rep.198 – Hair formation found between the lower corner of the left window shutter having the broken glass.
Rep.199 – Sample of presumed blood substance taken of the portion of the wood of the window having the broken glass.

See the Exhibit list translated to English:

Exhibits and biological traces found in the bedroom of Filomena ROMANELLI (report of investigation, exhibits and seizures, prepared by Gabinetto Provinciale of the Scientific Police of Perugia, dated 11/05/2007

Rep.198 – Hair formation found between the lower cornice of the left window shutter having the broken glass, indicated in the evidence photographs with the letter “R”, (report of the evidence described carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale of Forensic Police of Perugia) – page 172 A.F./239 R.;

Rep.199 – Sample of presumed blood substance taken of the portion of the wood of the window having the broken glass, indicated in the evidence photographs by the letter “S”,[/b] (report of the evidence described carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale of the Forensic Police of Perugia) – page 172 A.F./239 R.;

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/test_results_index_translated.doc

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/frequently-asked-questions/

I've seen many 'Guilters' mock the American press coverage of this case, and while American media can get incredibly vapid w/ tunnel-vision when the story involves politics, American media actually did a vastly superior job reporting this case than did either the Italian or UK media – e.g., this 2008 story had it 100% right:

Italian prosecutors seek murder indictment against Amanda Knox
published July 11, 2008

The authorities, led by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, should have realized their mistake: It wasn’t a sex game gone wrong but a burglary gone wrong. Local thief and burglar Rudy Guede had broken-in and murdered Meredith Kercher when she arrived home and found him inside her house. But the authorities, who had boldly announced to the media that the crime was solved, refused to admit their mistake. They simply pulled Patrick Lumumba out of their fantasy and plugged in Rudy Guede. They then attempted to find evidence to support their theory and ignored, suppressed and destroyed evidence that didn’t.

At the center of the prosecution’s fantasy was a violent sex orgy involving the three defendants and Meredith.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...s-seek-murder-indictment-against-amanda-knox/

 

[Kauffer]

Hi Carbonjam72,
The hottie that is in my avatar is my new chick,
28, luvs to make love, anytime.

Lately I've been spillin' a lot of that stuff that Dr. Stefanoni wanted tested,
it just goes everywhere.

There should be more than just a small stain if a young dude ejaculated,
in my experienced opinion, hahaha.


As most males don't just ejaculate in 1 small spot,
surely Guede too, if it was his, shot his j*zz everywhere.

I doubt the stain on the edge of the pillow was stepped in by Guede's Nike's,
the stuff woulda been smeared all around,
instead it is outlined well enough to also see a connecting trail between the 2 bigger stains.

For he stepped in 1 of these puddles with his left foot -(I believe?) sneaker then left the wet imprint on the left side of Meredith's body as she lay dying or dead on her back, with her left hand upraised for some reason.


But I believe it was not the stain on the edge of the pillow case,
which was IIRC, found below and between Miss Kercher's sprawled open legs...

It's not poor, poor Rudy.
It's Poor, Poor Meredith.

Melissa's lovely, by the way. Do say hi.

You've got a knack for the detail. The superimposition of the image of Kercher's body on the pillow in Vinci's analysis appears to cover the space on the pillow where the supposed shoe print in semen is - at least to me. How does it look to you. It's close right?

 

[Ken Dine]

It's impossible to know which is worse in relation to the presumed semen stain - that they saw no need to test it, vs. that they did test it and suppressed the results.

There's no mystery here since they obviously had tested the apparent semen stain since we've all seen the Nov 2nd video of Stefanoni on the phone asking for it to be tested pronto!

The only relevant question is, why would they later claim they didn't test it?

Easy answer –– BECAUSE, the stain was Guede's semen and not Raffaele's semen!

Combine this with another thing - they did no forensics on the outside door or handle of Meredith's door. They said at trial this was because it was not part of the crime scene.

Anyone still wishing to make Mignini detective of the year? Did Nick van der Leek cover any of this in his [strikeout]fantasy [/strikeout] book?

Likely, Mignini's experience with processing murder scenes is under five (5) murders -- Mignini directed Meredith's murder investigation (1), and Mignini was involved with the Florence serial murders (but not the main investigator there). That's two murder investigations I know of, and he's done ZERO since Meredith's murder.

In America it takes a cop years to progress up the ladder to gain enough experience to lead a murder investigation. When the detective feels he has enough evidence he presents his case to a D.A. to see if it flies. If not, back to work to dig deeper. American judges are also (usually) there to insure that a suspect's rights are respected.

The American system is certainly not perfect since imperfect people can abuse their authority in any system, but it sure doesn't allow an inexperienced dufus as much power as Mignini wielded back in 2007.

 

[Bill Williams]

No one else comes to the level of Nadeau, except for maybe Pisa, in the naked attempt to juice the story for money reasons. Dempsey never did that, neither did Burleigh.

You just agree with their positions. They juiced plenty. Check the crime wave stuff of Nina's. Follain makes up all kinds of stuff. Barbie does her best, it's just hard for her.

I trust that was not meant as a dismissive remark, because if so that would then be a genetic fallacy.

The "crime wave" stuff really depends, doesn't it. Depends on the certainty in which Burleigh presents it. Also, any journalist will tell you that in writing the first draft of history, that plenty will be wrong because of the fog of war.

I actually do not agree "with their positions". Dempsey is the closest to not having a position in her book, not really - she simply spresented what was genuinely knowable but not presented by the juicers Pisas of the world

While we wait the Marasca motivations, can you give a dictionary definition of "dope"?

Are you trying to get me banned ?

Who? Me!? Still it would be good to know your definition before signing on holus-bolus..... in general I've agreed with much of what you've said, but believe I have a nuance you'r not getting... but, then again, things like that keep threads alive!

ETA - How do you know Barbie made money by saying Amanda knows something?

You are kidding, right?

Barbie had the good fortune to be a food and travel stringer for a number of mags including Newsweek/DailyBeast and had Tina as the consummate promoter. Unlike Dempsey BN didn't start her book shopping in Feb of 2008.

Clearly no one took more advantage of the crime than Dempsey. She had her little food blog on the PI. I haven't seen anything from her besides this case since it began. Maybe she wrote one other story.

Which all leaves me wondering what your point is, then. We started talking about those journalists who wanted to milk this tragedy for all it was worth, as contrasted with journalists who simply wished to report the news and move on. And for that comes the non sequitor, "Clearly no one took more advantage of the crime than Dempsey." That one is laughable.

It sounds like Dempsey clearly did not continue to try to monetize the crime, unduly for her benefit. Even by your own valuation. It is clear you do not like her, and it is unclear why.

 

[Numbers]

....

1. Strange you suddenly can't speculate but suggest Rudi should be asked.

2. It still could be someone else's and Rudi stepped in it.

3. While I accept that the stain has a shoe print in it, I can't see it myself.

1. My attempt at humor was too weak. My imagination is too limited in terms of the events leading to the deposit of the putative semen. The dry putative semen stain is a yellow color not too different in color from that of the white pillow among all the blood. Perhaps Rudy anticipated that the putative semen would be missed among the blood and other matter on the pillow. Or maybe the putative semen is from someone else. I remember someone offering a nasty speculation that one of the male police officers had left it after the discovery of Meredith's body, and that's why it was never tested, but I find that hard to accept as likely.

2. Indeed. And it would be a relatively small amount that had been stepped in. The other deposit, which appears not to be stepped on, is larger, I think.

3. You don't see the yellow partial rings in the Crimescope photo, as posted by RW? Perhaps you should try looking at the images in http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/
where there are additional images and explanation.