Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[RWVBWL]

Both Laura and some police official spotted it. It was indeed described as a welt. <snip> You don't think a long graze on the jaw which needs to be masked by stubble is "nasty"? Does it not indicate some kind of fracas?

Vixen,
are you implying that Raffaele was hurt in a fracas,
just because he did not shave his beard stubble?

Look at the photo up above again.
He's hiding a long graze on the jaw?

Dang, that's a lot of facial growth for a young man in less than 24 hours.
Is this why Raff, when photographed, was seen wearin' a scarf?

I'd always thought that Amanda shouldn have been wearing the scarf,
you know, to hide that welt, err I mean hickey.

Odd that she would let the world see The Scratch
if she was involved in Meredith Kercher's murder.

 

[carbonjam72]

My problem is how much is incompetence (most in my opinion), how much malfeasance (and if so how much is the responsibility of Mignini as the investigating magistrate vs the police). I think Mignini perverted the course of the investigation, I suspect he drove the investigation against Knox. Certainly the decision to withhold access to lawyers and argue for solitary confinement were his. It was Mignini that introduced the case against Knox and Sollecito into Guede's case, establishing judicial facts. Mignini chose not to prosecute Guede for 1) Theft of phones, 2) Theft of money, 3) Breaking in or staging of a breaking in, 4) Carriage of a knife. All of which was tactical aimed at supporting the case against Knox. (I leave out Sollecito, as I think Knox was his target, and Sollecito co-lateral damage.)

There certainly are DNA results from downstairs that are suppressed/withheld from the defense. That's Stef and the prosecutors Mignini and Commodi, right? Then there' the foot print analysis that you've pointed out, as simply being fitted to the defendants to support a conviction - that's not incompetence, right? Then there's the destruction of the computers, one after another after another in sequence, was that incompetence too?

At some point, when all the errors favor a conviction, there seems to be a pattern in place, where the prosecutor determines the outcome of an investigation, and then the forensics team provides/manufactures/suppresses/destroys evidence to fit up the prosecutor's claims.

Incompetence is certainly present. But Mignini is the coordinating agent that tells a coordinated story of manufactured guilt.

It's really a kind of mafia that has to be broken. Some one of the inside participants has to start talking about police procedure and their willingness to dance on the ends of Mingini's strings.

But how can they confess to something like that, unless its to evade heavier responsibility under threat of prosecution? Only an investigation could get at some of the truth in this case. Mignini will never confess to anything, imo, he is incapable of seeing himself in any other way but 'in the right'.

But there may be hope for lesser players, who knows. There was that anonymous letter from the Rome lab detailing shortcomings there, maybe there are more good men and women waiting for the opportunity to come forward under the right circumstances.

I'd actually favor a 'truth commission' style of inquiry, where Stef could cough up the DNA data without fear of being prosecuted. Give them all a chance to come clean.

These corrupt hooligans sitting in prison isn't as important a goal as the truth coming out, moo.

 

[Numbers]

....

As to #2, this has Kercher making her way downstairs after she's been attacked and for some reason returning to her bedroom. Maybe I guess. Guede is threatening her with a knife and she complies, thus no signs of a struggle? Still this is also a permutation of the police malfeasance option since they had to deny that it was Kercher's blood or fail badly to identify the blood as Kercher's.

I think #3 just needs to be expanded to intruder got in to the bedroom and proceeded to trash it and leave blood. Conceivably the intruder had a key, the door wasn't locked or broke in using a non destructive method. So Guede made his way downstairs after the murder. This one seems plausible. What's wrong with this except that it requires some kind of police malfeasance for which there doesn't seem to be a motive to cover it up. Is there a problem with blood drops leaving the down stairs unit for their case against AK/RS?

....

Hey, I try. Not all of us have our own private vault of Kercher murder information.

FWIW, I considered that you meant Kercher, but it seemed to require a trip downstairs after an initial attack and then a trip upstairs where she was mortally wounded.

Hmm, maybe your were implying that she was initially attacked downstairs? Regardless wouldn't the kind of wounds she sustained have been bleeding so badly that whichever wound came first, the walk upstairs, if it were possible at all, would have left a serious trail of blood. Were there any incidental wounds that might have bled slowly enough for this theory to be plausible? And then of course, it doesn't explain why the PLE would have hidden the fact of Kercher's blood downstairs.

....

I think there is some convergence here on what the likely possibilities are for the downstairs flat crime scene.

To clear up some concepts...

For #2, I don't believe anyone has proposed that Meredith went downstairs after she was attacked. She would have been too badly wounded.

Some of us have speculated that Meredith had gone downstairs before she was attacked, to water the pot plants and/or check on the famous injured cat. Some have also, I believe, speculated that she was initially attacked in the downstairs flat and then forced (or fled and was followed by her attacker) to the upstairs. I don't believe either of these scenarios are highly probable, based on the evidence of what she was wearing when attacked and the lack of any clear evidence of a struggle outside of her bedroom upstairs. The scenario in which she comes home to the upstairs flat and is attacked soon after she enters her bedroom by an intruder (Guede, who had been in the larger bathroom, apparently not visible on entry) seems simpler and fully consistent with the available evidence.

For #3, the point is indeed that Guede would have gone downstairs to recover after he had fatally wounded and raped Meredith. In this scenario, it's assumed he either used the key she had for the downstairs, or somehow had another key. The police, who at first had made the finding out what had happened downstairs a priority (the DNA samples from downstairs were, according to available police records, among the first to be tested), decided to eliminate consideration of the downstairs as a crime scene. They did this by assigning, arbitrarily, all the bloodstains there to the cat with the injured blood. There is, however, no indication in the police records of any species-specific test (it would be an antigen-antibody test) to verify that the blood was from a cat. The approximately rectangular stain on the bed is, to me, totally improbable as a blood drip from a cat or a person; it appears to be the pattern left by part of an approximately rectangular object, such as the handle of a bloody knife. (There was a somewhat similar bloodstain on Meredith's bed, which has been attributed to the murder knife.) Human DNA profiles were obtained from a number of the downstairs bloodstains, but not revealed by the police. The DNA profiles must be human because of the primate-specific enzyme used in the DNA replication (PCR). The DNA must have been in the bloodstain itself or the underlying substrate (surface) or both.

For #3, it is my assumption that the police have suppressed the truth of the downstairs crime scene, including the DNA results, to hide the fact that only Rudy Guede was involved in the murder and rape of Meredith. Finding Guede's DNA in those bloodstains (his hand was wounded by his own knife in the attack - not uncommon in knife attacks) and Meredith's would have made his involvement too clear, while leaving no room for any involvement by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The suppression of the downstairs evidence by the police is consistent with their suppression of evidence from upstairs, such as the identity of the donor of the putative semen stain on Meredith's pillow. This putative semen stain may be tied to the time of the attack because of the distinctive shoe print on part of it.

 

[Numbers]

The discussion about the downstairs flat is intriguing but irrelevant.
I think we will never have sufficient information to come to any conclusions.
The options are that the downstairs is irrelevant to the crime and therefore discussing it is irrelevant. Or that it is related, but will not alter the conclusion; that Guede alone was the perpetrator.

....

The discussion of the downstairs flat is, IMO, not irrelevant at all. The suppression of the evidence from the downstairs flat is evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct justice and commit official misconduct by the police and prosecutor. The aim of the official misconduct has been to minimize the role of Rudy Guede in his crime, the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, while attempting to construct, wrongfully, a case against two innocent persons, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think there is some convergence here on what the likely possibilities are for the downstairs flat crime scene.

To clear up some concepts...

For #2, I don't believe anyone has proposed that Meredith went downstairs after she was attacked. She would have been too badly wounded.

Some of us have speculated that Meredith had gone downstairs before she was attacked, to water the pot plants and/or check on the famous injured cat. Some have also, I believe, speculated that she was initially attacked in the downstairs flat and then forced (or fled and was followed by her attacker) to the upstairs. I don't believe either of these scenarios are highly probable, based on the evidence of what she was wearing when attacked and the lack of any clear evidence of a struggle outside of her bedroom upstairs. The scenario in which she comes home to the upstairs flat and is attacked soon after she enters her bedroom by an intruder (Guede, who had been in the larger bathroom, apparently not visible on entry) seems simpler and fully consistent with the available evidence.

For #3, the point is indeed that Guede would have gone downstairs to recover after he had fatally wounded and raped Meredith. In this scenario, it's assumed he either used the key she had for the downstairs, or somehow had another key. The police, who at first had made the finding out what had happened downstairs a priority (the DNA samples from downstairs were, according to available police records, among the first to be tested), decided to eliminate consideration of the downstairs as a crime scene. They did this by assigning, arbitrarily, all the bloodstains there to the cat with the injured blood. There is, however, no indication in the police records of any species-specific test (it would be an antigen-antibody test) to verify that the blood was from a cat. The approximately rectangular stain on the bed is, to me, totally improbable as a blood drip from a cat or a person; it appears to be the pattern left by part of an approximately rectangular object, such as the handle of a bloody knife. (There was a somewhat similar bloodstain on Meredith's bed, which has been attributed to the murder knife.) Human DNA profiles were obtained from a number of the downstairs bloodstains, but not revealed by the police. The DNA profiles must be human because of the primate-specific enzyme used in the DNA replication (PCR). The DNA must have been in the bloodstain itself or the underlying substrate (surface) or both.

For #3, it is my assumption that the police have suppressed the truth of the downstairs crime scene, including the DNA results, to hide the fact that only Rudy Guede was involved in the murder and rape of Meredith. Finding Guede's DNA in those bloodstains (his hand was wounded by his own knife in the attack - not uncommon in knife attacks) and Meredith's would have made his involvement too clear, while leaving no room for any involvement by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The suppression of the downstairs evidence by the police is consistent with their suppression of evidence from upstairs, such as the identity of the donor of the putative semen stain on Meredith's pillow. This putative semen stain may be tied to the time of the attack because of the distinctive shoe print on part of it.

It's impossible to know which is worse in relation to the presumed semen stain - that they saw no need to test it, vs. that they did test it and suppressed the results.

Combine this with another thing - they did no forensics on the outside door or handle of Meredith's door. They said at trial this was because it was not part of the crime scene.

Anyone still wishing to make Mignini detective of the year? Did Nick van der Leek cover any of this in his [strikeout]fantasy [/strikeout] book?

 

[Grinder]

Bill you have talked about Barbie making money off this case and I believe you think she made the most. Many people have made money and if you have a list of how much each made I'd like to see it. The person that went for the money first and had the "award winning" crime novel was Dempsey. Darkness Descending was one of the first books out. Nina's book seems to be holding more value. Vogt, Pisa and other reporters made money as well.

Even if Barbie made the most money, notwithstanding Amanda, that doesn't mean she isn't a dope. Having watched her on CNN etc. she sounded dopey and if you saw the Australian Dateline show with Barbie, Vogt, Pisa and the Italian woman correspondent you would have seen her at her dopey best.

At any rate she wasn't in Mignini's corner except that she. like many, bow to any authority figure.

 

[Kauffer]

It's impossible to know which is worse in relation to the presumed semen stain - that they saw no need to test it, vs. that they did test it and suppressed the results.

Combine this with another thing - they did no forensics on the outside door or handle of Meredith's door. They said at trial this was because it was not part of the crime scene.

Anyone still wishing to make Mignini detective of the year? Did Nick van der Leek cover any of this in his [strikeout]fantasy [/strikeout] book?

How could they not test the presumed semen stain? They might be lots of things including incompetent, but not idiots. It reveals the identity of someone who was there. The fact that we don't know the result exonerates Raffaele as the owner.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill you have talked about Barbie making money off this case and I believe you think she made the most. Many people have made money and if you have a list of how much each made I'd like to see it. The person that went for the money first and had the "award winning" crime novel was Dempsey. Darkness Descending was one of the first books out. Nina's book seems to be holding more value. Vogt, Pisa and other reporters made money as well.

Even if Barbie made the most money, notwithstanding Amanda, that doesn't mean she isn't a dope. Having watched her on CNN etc. she sounded dopey and if you saw the Australian Dateline show with Barbie, Vogt, Pisa and the Italian woman correspondent you would have seen her at her dopey best.

At any rate she wasn't in Mignini's corner except that she. like many, bow to any authority figure.

There really is no argument, strictly speaking, that I have with your analysis Grinder. Mainly, I see nothing wrong, per se, with journalists who get a fair wage for plying their craft.

Perhaps the thing you and I will always disagree on is the level in which each of these people inserted themselves into their natratives, in an effort to give the monetization of their efforts an extra, artificial boost.

Case in point: Nadeau has got a lot of mileage, and extra income, by spinning this as, "Amanda knows something she's not telling us." That's simply disingenuous.

No one else comes to the level of Nadeau, except for maybe Pisa, in the naked attempt to juice the story for money reasons. Dempsey never did that, neither did Burleigh.

While we wait the Marasca motivations, can you give a dictionary definition of "dope"?

 

[Grinder]

How could they not test the presumed semen stain? They might be lots of things including incompetent, but not idiots. It reveals the identity of someone who was there. The fact that we don't know the result exonerates Raffaele as the owner.

And Rudi's Skype call makes it clear it wasn't his. He and Giacomo discuss his actions and with Meredith and Rudi makes clear the "sperm" found (he had read in the news) can't be his because he never reached that point. Had he made the deposit he would have made the ejaculation part of his narrative.

We know the PLE would have told us in 48 pica headlines that it was Raf's (for the framing fans, why didn't they fabricate his DNA?).

So it either was her BF's and they didn't want to tarnish her fastidious reputation or it was a fourth man.

 

[Grinder]

No one else comes to the level of Nadeau, except for maybe Pisa, in the naked attempt to juice the story for money reasons. Dempsey never did that, neither did Burleigh.

You just agree with their positions. They juiced plenty. Check the crime wave stuff of Nina's. Follain makes up all kinds of stuff. Barbie does her best, it's just hard for her.

While we wait the Marasca motivations, can you give a dictionary definition of "dope"?

Are you trying to get me banned ?

ETA - How do you know Barbie made money by saying Amanda knows something?

Barbie had the good fortune to be a food and travel stringer for a number of mags including Newsweek/DailyBeast and had Tina as the consummate promoter. Unlike Dempsey BN didn't start her book shopping in Feb of 2008.

Clearly no one took more advantage of the crime than Dempsey. She had her little food blog on the PI. I haven't seen anything from her besides this case since it began. Maybe she wrote one other story.

 

[Numbers]

And Rudi's Skype call makes it clear it wasn't his. He and Giacomo discuss his actions and with Meredith and Rudi makes clear the "sperm" found (he had read in the news) can't be his because he never reached that point. Had he made the deposit he would have made the ejaculation part of his narrative.

We know the PLE would have told us in 48 pica headlines that it was Raf's (for the framing fans, why didn't they fabricate his DNA?).

So it either was her BF's and they didn't want to tarnish her fastidious reputation or it was a fourth man.

The problem with this is that there is a partial shoe print that appears to match Guede's shoe sole pattern in one of the putative semen stain segments.

There is the possibility that the donor could have been a second male attacker.

Seems highly unlikely that it was Meredith's boyfriend because of the shoe print.

The police were not, as far as is known, fabricating evidence, but rather relying on DNA contamination - probably ubiquitous at a relatively high level in Stefanoni's lab - manipulating testing methods, and misinterpreting data and evidence (including innocent statements and actions) - and soliciting or coercing false statements - to construct a narrative of guilt against Knox and Sollecito and, initially, Lumumba.

 

[Grinder]

The problem with this is that there is a partial shoe print that appears to match Guede's shoe sole pattern in one of the putative semen stain segments.

There is the possibility that the donor could have been a second male attacker.

Seems highly unlikely that it was Meredith's boyfriend because of the shoe print.

The police were not, as far as is known, fabricating evidence, but rather relying on DNA contamination - probably ubiquitous at a relatively high level in Stefanoni's lab - manipulating testing methods, and misinterpreting data and evidence (including innocent statements and actions) - and soliciting or coercing false statements - to construct a narrative of guilt against Knox and Sollecito and, initially, Lumumba.

Why didn't use the techniques you claim on the stain and prove Raf was there if they were framing the kids?

Why if Rudi ejaculated didn't he incorporate that into his story since the media was reporting "semen" found?

I've forgotten, is the semen stain covering the shoe print?

 

[carbonjam72]

The putative second assailant would had have to be a marksman...

The problem with this is that there is a partial shoe print that appears to match Guede's shoe sole pattern in one of the putative semen stain segments.

There is the possibility that the donor could have been a second male attacker.
Seems highly unlikely that it was Meredith's boyfriend because of the shoe print.

The police were not, as far as is known, fabricating evidence, but rather relying on DNA contamination - probably ubiquitous at a relatively high level in Stefanoni's lab - manipulating testing methods, and misinterpreting data and evidence (including innocent statements and actions) - and soliciting or coercing false statements - to construct a narrative of guilt against Knox and Sollecito and, initially, Lumumba.

1st highlight dates the semen to the time of the attack, in Rudy's shoes, so I'd say its established that the stain belongs to Rudy. Absent a test eliminating Rudy, I'd say it has to be Rudy.

2nd hilite, as I once mentioned to Grinder's amusement, since there was only one set of footprints in Meredith's wet blood, if the semen stain is from a second person, he would have to be shooting his gobbies from the hallway, and with pretty good aim, it should be said.

 

[carbonjam72]

Why didn't use the techniques you claim on the stain and prove Raf was there if they were framing the kids?

Why if Rudi ejaculated didn't he incorporate that into his story since the media was reporting "semen" found?

I've forgotten, is the semen stain covering the shoe print?

IIRC, the shoe stepped into the wet semen and smushed it into the shape of the treads on the bottom of Rudy's sneakers. It's virtually the equivalent of a royal decree in olden times being sealed with a wax ring to verify authorship. I don't see much waffle room here, but YMMV...

 

[Kauffer]

And Rudi's Skype call makes it clear it wasn't his. He and Giacomo discuss his actions and with Meredith and Rudi makes clear the "sperm" found (he had read in the news) can't be his because he never reached that point. Had he made the deposit he would have made the ejaculation part of his narrative.

We know the PLE would have told us in 48 pica headlines that it was Raf's (for the framing fans, why didn't they fabricate his DNA?).

So it either was her BF's and they didn't want to tarnish her fastidious reputation or it was a fourth man.

How do you account for this?:

"Lead Detective Monica Napoleoni testified Guede’s DNA was found on the pillow yet according to Patrizia Stefanoni it wasn’t tested. (p25 Transcript February 28, 2009)

Question: Listen do you know the results from Scientific Police, more or less obviously, not in detail because then we’ll ask them. I wanted to ask you if you remember on which exhibits the DNA of Rudy Guede was found
Answer:Well, for sure the DNA of Rudy Guede, it was found on the pillow that was under the victim, on the toilet paper with the feces in the bathroom and on the vaginal swab but I don’t know if it was DNA however they call it Y-chromosome and I’m not a biologist, I’m not able to report on this."

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

 

[Grinder]

How do you account for this?:

"Lead Detective Monica Napoleoni testified Guede’s DNA was found on the pillow yet according to Patrizia Stefanoni it wasn’t tested. (p25 Transcript February 28, 2009)

Question: Listen do you know the results from Scientific Police, more or less obviously, not in detail because then we’ll ask them. I wanted to ask you if you remember on which exhibits the DNA of Rudy Guede was found
Answer:Well, for sure the DNA of Rudy Guede, it was found on the pillow that was under the victim, on the toilet paper with the feces in the bathroom and on the vaginal swab but I don’t know if it was DNA however they call it Y-chromosome and I’m not a biologist, I’m not able to report on this."

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Possible Freudian slip by lead detective Monica Napoleoni?

Lead Detective Monica Napoleoni testified Guede’s DNA was found on the pillow yet according to Patrizia Stefanoni it wasn’t tested. (p25 Transcript February 28, 2009)

Question: Listen do you know the results from Scientific Police, more or less obviously, not in detail because then we’ll ask them. I wanted to ask you if you remember on which exhibits the DNA of Rudy Guede was found
Answer: Well, for sure the DNA of Rudy Guede, it was found on the pillow that was under the victim, on the toilet paper with the feces in the bathroom and on the vaginal swab but I don’t know if it was DNA however they call it Y-chromosome and I’m not a biologist, I’m not able to report on this.

 

[carbonjam72]

How do you account for this?:

"Lead Detective Monica Napoleoni testified Guede’s DNA was found on the pillow yet according to Patrizia Stefanoni it wasn’t tested. (p25 Transcript February 28, 2009)

Question: Listen do you know the results from Scientific Police, more or less obviously, not in detail because then we’ll ask them. I wanted to ask you if you remember on which exhibits the DNA of Rudy Guede was found
Answer:Well, for sure the DNA of Rudy Guede, it was found on the pillow that was under the victim, on the toilet paper with the feces in the bathroom and on the vaginal swab but I don’t know if it was DNA however they call it Y-chromosome and I’m not a biologist, I’m not able to report on this."

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

But were Rudy's finger print or palm print also found on that pillow? Don't we know that Rudy was cut on his hands, and at least possibly bleeding his own blood as well as having got Meredith's blood on himself?

Napoleone doesn't say semen stain.

Now I do think they tested the semen stain, and they found it was Rudy's, and they did suppress that result. But I don't think Napoleone admits it here.

Napoleone also had to be ejected from some of the questioning in court, because she was coaching the police witnesses from the back of the room. Carlo Della Venova complained, and the judge asked her to leave (I forget which judge, but it may have been massei?).

 

[Numbers]

1. Why didn't use the techniques you claim on the stain and prove Raf was there if they were framing the kids?

2. Why if Rudi ejaculated didn't he incorporate that into his story since the media was reporting "semen" found?

3. I've forgotten, is the semen stain covering the shoe print?

1. There are apparently ethical(?) or practical(? fear of being caught and punished) limits to how the police and prosecution conducted their official misconduct. Much of it involved suppression of evidence; otherwise, relying on "happy accidents" of contamination, intentional misunderstandings of words and actions, soliciting or coercing false statements, etc. The bra clasp might be an example of planting evidence, but it may be another happy accident.

2. I don't know. You should ask Rudi.

3. The shoe print appears to be made in the putative semen. It shows up under Crimescope lighting. (This lighting may be triggering the natural fluorescence of the semen under the proper illumination.)

Source for 3: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

 

[carbonjam72]

1. There are apparently ethical(?) or practical(? fear of being caught and punished) limits to how the police and prosecution conducted their official misconduct. Much of it involved suppression of evidence; otherwise, relying on "happy accidents" of contamination, intentional misunderstandings of words and actions, soliciting or coercing false statements, etc. The bra clasp might be an example of planting evidence, but it may be another happy accident.

2. I don't know. You should ask Rudi.
3. The shoe print appears to be made in the putative semen. It shows up under Crimescope lighting. (This lighting may be triggering the natural fluorescence of the semen under the proper illumination.)

Source for 3: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/

Also, spilling semen under the murder victim looks a lot more like its associated with a criminal assault, than a consensual date. The circumstance of the finding of semen, makes it being Rudy's, a little less plausible than the rest of Rudy's story of consensual sex on a date.

 

[Kauffer]

But were Rudy's finger print or palm print also found on that pillow? Don't we know that Rudy was cut on his hands, and at least possibly bleeding his own blood as well as having got Meredith's blood on himself?

Napoleone doesn't say semen stain.

Now I do think they tested the semen stain, and they found it was Rudy's, and they did suppress that result. But I don't think Napoleone admits it here.

Napoleone also had to be ejected from some of the questioning in court, because she was coaching the police witnesses from the back of the room. Carlo Della Venova complained, and the judge asked her to leave (I forget which judge, but it may have been massei?).

Is there a cite for this somewhere?

Whatever she's referring to, we don't seem to have any discovery.