Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

Douglas Preston had some valuable insights into the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case, as noted in this interview he gave. He explains how the Italian concept of "dieterologia" helped in taking the prosecution off the rails:

http://www.nuok.it/uncategorized/tales-from-italy-s-dark-side-interview-with-douglas-preston/

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Mignini was eventually acquitted of those charges.

That's actually not correct Bill, IIUC.
Mignini was able to have his conviction set aside by challenging the venue. The case was then transferred to Turin, for the prosecutor there to refile. However, the case was barred from refiling due to statute of limitations.

The only trial on the merits found both Mignini and Giuttari guilty, and sentenced them to 14 and 16 months in prison respectively. (Notice that Giuttari received a heavier sentence than Mignini, by the way).
IIUC, the prosecutor and other officials in Florence were targets of Mignini and Giuttari's investigations and allegations, and having them prosecuting the case was argued to be a conflict of interests. (Which if I've got the facts right, i actually have to agree with).

I think the problem, is that Mignini should not have been allowed to remain in office, and to continue using his same bizarre discredited ideas in further prosecutions.

But as Grinder's post on Giuttari's re-appointment to the police from just this week shows, the theory Mignini relied upon in his Narducci trail cases, has according to this report, been given formal accreditation in the eyes of the law. Giuttari's satanic fantasies, are now official dogma.

It's tragic really. Those poor Italian citizens who are subjected to such manifest ignorance, stupidity, incompetence and above all superstition. Where one wonders, is modernity?

 

[Bill Williams]

So claims the NY hack. I could not see anything in Mignini's closing submissions that said anything of the kind. What he did say was Raff had a manga comic that appeared to mirror the scene found. As the manga story happens at halloween, he reasons it might have been late because of the above circumstances.

Seems a fair enough deduction to me.

Machiavelli, way way upthread, provided a summary of Mignini's closing at the 2009 trial.

In part Machiavelli summarized it as follows:

1) Knox had a psychological profile of a "humiliated/wounded self"
2) Raffaele used "extensive" drugs, as opposed to Rudy simply only using drugs
3) Knox regarded Meredith as "prissy"
4) That Knox had an ability to manipulate Guede and/or Sollecito, particularly since there is no record of Knox ever, in any meaningful sense, communicating with Guede
5) Guede and Sollecito were competing for Amanda's attention​

By the time Mignini got to his closing arguments, he had abandoned nearly all the stuff he was claiming before the trial started. As you know, Barbie Nadeau claims in her book that co-prosecutor Maneula Comodi threatened to quit the case if Mignini went to trial with the Satanic cult/ritualistic hallowe'en killing scenario.

By the time of closing in late 2009, Mignini turned to psychology to explain th murder, even though no psychological assessment of those points was ever entered at trial.

Esentially, this meant that the defence had been unable to prepare a defence. No matter, by the time Judge Massei wrote his motivations report, all this psychologizing disappeared, and for Massei this was a crime of Rudy's lust, for which Rudy needed no encouragement, much less from Amanda or Raffaele. Massei then theologized the crime, saying that A and R simply joined in at the last minute, in an inexplicable, "choice for evil".

Once again, Massei's scenario, which he convicted them on, was not something entered at trial by Mignini or Comodi; again, essentially meaning that the defence had no opportunity to address it.

 

[Bill Williams]

That's actually not correct Bill, IIUC.
Mignini was able to have his conviction set aside by challenging the venue. The case was then transferred to Turin, for the prosecutor there to refile. However, the case was barred from refiling due to statute of limitations.

The only trial on the merits found both Mignini and Giuttari guilty, and sentenced them to 14 and 16 months in prison respectively. (Notice that Giuttari received a heavier sentence than Mignini, by the way).
IIUC, the prosecutor and other officials in Florence were targets of Mignini and Giuttari's investigations and allegations, and having them prosecuting the case was argued to be a conflict of interests. (Which if I've got the facts right, i actually have to agree with).

I think the problem, is that Mignini should not have been allowed to remain in office, and to continue using his same bizarre discredited ideas in further prosecutions.

No way around it - he was acquitted, you've just remarked on the process by which that happened.

 

[Ken Dine]

Douglas Preston had some valuable insights into the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case, as noted in this interview he gave. He explains how the Italian concept of "dieterologia" helped in taking the prosecution off the rails:

http://www.nuok.it/uncategorized/tales-from-italy-s-dark-side-interview-with-douglas-preston/

​

​

Mignini was eventually acquitted of those charges.

Actually, Mignini appealed and the appellate court agreed Mignini had been prosecuted in the wrong jurisdiction, and by the time the case was filed in the proper court, time had run out and the case was dismissed, but not on its merits.

 

[Vixen]

Your kidding...right? Just how many satanic ritual murders do you think happen Vixen?

Were there pentagrams, lit candles and chicken bones? Nope.So why would you view it as a ritual murder?
What's wrong with investigating the murder for what it obviously was? A burglary gone wrong?

How many murders do you think happen from burglary? Vanishingly small. In fact here in England - and I read of a case in the US - it's been the householder shooting the burglar.

Nobody has said the Kercher murder was a satanic ritual. Nice try with your straw man.

 

[Ken Dine]

No way around it - he was acquitted, you've just remarked on the process by which that happened.

According to my Mac's dictionary:

acquit |əˈkwit|
verb (acquits, acquitting, acquitted)
1 [ with obj. ] (usu. be acquitted) free (someone) from a criminal charge by a verdict of not guilty: she was acquitted on all counts | the jury acquitted him of murder.

Mignini's case was 'DISMISSED', so he was never acquitted. The only time a court had decided the case on its merits the court had convicted Mignini, but apparently by stroke of luck (or otherwise), Mignini's conviction was obtained in the wrong jurisdiction, so it was eventually dismissed.

 

[Dan O.]

Is it also possible Dan, that you've made a mistake in your suppositions?

It could also be that Rudy knew how to enter the room without a key? I've seen it on TV, maybe those more familiar with B&E on these boards would have more insight.

Picking the lock? Maybe. But why lock it again afterwards? If these are like the new locks upstairs or the original locks as evidenced by the skeleton keys on the table, they are deadbolts that cannot be slipped with a credit card or pocket knife. Expanding the door jamb is also not an option with the stone construction. I haven't studied the doors downstairs so there is a possibility I overlooked something. We do have a former professional in this thread maybe something will come from that angle. How about using the hammer and small screwdriver left on the kitchen table to remove the hinge pins? Modern hinges are designed to inhibit that but these are not necessarily modern designs. It also seems like a lot of fiddling around for someone trying to escape a murder scene.

Also, was there ever any species specific test to confirm that the blood detected was cat's blood?

There were human DNA sample, including on the light switch. You could argue that's environmental contamination,. but that doesn't seem like a slam dunk. Especially if we don't know whose DNA profile(s) were on the light switch. Rudy's DNA on the light switch would be tough to explain, imo.

It really does all come down to the forensics. Without the forensics, everything is just speculation. If the forensice can be successfully hidden as they have so far, they win. Unless some authority with jurisdiction decides to open an inquest, these questions will not be answered.

 

[Bill Williams]

How many murders do you think happen from burglary? Vanishingly small. In fact here in England - and I read of a case in the US - it's been the householder shooting the burglar.

Nobody has said the Kercher murder was a satanic ritual. Nice try with your straw man.

Both John Kercher in his book, as well as Barbie Nadeau in her book said exactly this - that this is what Mignini told them. They could be right, they could be wrong, they could have misheard.....

.... but it is not correct to say that "nobody has said."

 

[Vixen]

Mach was seriously obsessed with the Masons. He saw Masonic conspiracies everywhere. But in a way I understand this. Perugia has 24 Masonic temples. They do exert a certain amount of influence, but it's not what Mach or the other crazies think it is.

Masons believe in a higher power, but not any specific higher power. They strongly believe in rational thought and service to one another. But to Catholics, they divert people from the true faith. In the mind of the church, anything even if it does good but takes people away from theIraq idea of God is the work of the devil.

One of my old bosses was a grandmaster of the City of London, a square mile full of worshipful masonic lodges.

The problem people have is the secrecy and lack of transparency. Ethics being a huge buzzword these days.

It's quite wrong that Christians and Orthodox Jews cannot be part of this powerful network, based on nods, winks and silly handshakes.

 

[Bill Williams]

How many murders do you think happen from burglary? Vanishingly small. In fact here in England - and I read of a case in the US - it's been the householder shooting the burglar.

Nobody has said the Kercher murder was a satanic ritual. Nice try with your straw man.

Google, "burglaries turned into murder".

You get over a million hits. Granted not all those fit your criterion, but even on the first page there are a dozen situations where burglaries did, in fact, turn into murder.

 

[Vixen]

What about waiting until the fingerprint and DNA analysis comes back? What about actually checking alibis before arresting someone based on a confused vision? What about doing a crime scene investigation and actually collecting the victim's bloody clothing and storing it properly? What about changing gloves in between handling the evidence? What about allowing the coroner to determine the victim's body temperature? What about not destroying three computer hard drives and misplacing Amanda's camera? What about recording the interrogations? What about determining the facts first and only afterwards develop a theory? What about not trying the case through the gutter press? What about testing a semen stain in between the legs of a victim of a sex related murder?

Why?... Because these people are not professionals and it is more fun to talk about Halloween, black cats, satanism, masonic rituals, bunny vibrators, vasoline, "la mossa", cartwheels, blah, blah, blah... Innocent people suffered because of the incompetent police, prosecutors, judges, and irresponsible tabloid press. BTW, that includes the Kerchers who were manipulated and lied to throughout the entire process.

If go into your kitchen and notice the shoulder of meat you bought is now on the floor half eaten and your dog or cat looks up at you with big innocent eyes and blood dripping down its chin, you don't need to take alibis, blood samples and paw prints.

You know who the culprit is.

 

[Vixen]

Google, "burglaries turned into murder".

You get over a million hits. Granted not all those fit your criterion, but even on the first page there are a dozen situations where burglaries did, in fact, turn into murder.

Logical fallacy.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

How many murders do you think happen from burglary? Vanishingly small.

From the FBI website:

Of the murders for which the circumstances surrounding the crimes were known, 40.7 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2012. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 22.5 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 35.9 percent of reported homicides.

 

[carbonjam72]

Actually, Mignini appealed and the appellate court agreed Mignini had been prosecuted in the wrong jurisdiction, and by the time the case was filed in the proper court, time had run out and the case was dismissed, but not on its merits.

+1, except my understanding is that the case was never refiled, it was simply allowed to lapse, and then formally discarded when the statute of limitations had run out.

 

[MDDVS]

How many murders do you think happen from burglary? Vanishingly small. In fact here in England - and I read of a case in the US - it's been the householder shooting the burglar.

Nobody has said the Kercher murder was a satanic ritual. Nice try with your straw man.

You're inventing statitistics again.

 

[Planigale]

To be fair, the murder did happen on the eve of All Souls and All Saints or whatever, one day after Halloween. It's reasonable for investigators to consider whether that might be significant, perhaps delayed from halloween. The fact it was a Thursday, the satanist's sabbat, as opposed to Jews/Seventh Day Adventists Friday start of the Sabbath, has to be considered as a null hypothesis, to be rejected if it doesn't fit. There was blood from the black cat downstairs. The victim had dressed as a vampire. Both Raff and Amanda made much about Mez having vampire blood make up on her chin when they saw her earlier that day. The body was found in the same position as in Raff's manga comic, found in his appartment, 'Blood, the Last Vampire Slayer', with similar blood marks on the wall.

The footprints found were strangely one-legged. The tecs have to puzzle out why. A masonic ritual (based on ancient Egyptian beelzebub/basphamet worship) involves one foot.

Why shouldn't detectives consider all of these possible explanations?

I have known third degree grandmaster masons and satanists (who thought it fun to prance around Highgate Cemetery at night). In the days of the Beatles' Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club they even had satanist Aleister Crowley on the cover. Lots of people lived by Crowley's adage, "Do thou what thy willst", as rebellion against "the Establishment".

Are you claiming masons and satanists do not exist?

What is your problem with cops investigating this angle?

This is nonsense. We have our Sabbat in relation to the lunar cycle, and the Solar cycle. The latter e.g. the solstice is more of interest to neo pagans and white witches, depending on what we want to cast usually the full moon or no moon are best. Anyway Thursday is late night shopping so really inconvenient time to hold a Sabbat.

 

[carbonjam72]

Picking the lock? Maybe. But why lock it again afterwards? If these are like the new locks upstairs or the original locks as evidenced by the skeleton keys on the table, they are deadbolts that cannot be slipped with a credit card or pocket knife. Expanding the door jamb is also not an option with the stone construction. I haven't studied the doors downstairs so there is a possibility I overlooked something. We do have a former professional in this thread maybe something will come from that angle. How about using the hammer and small screwdriver left on the kitchen table to remove the hinge pins? Modern hinges are designed to inhibit that but these are not necessarily modern designs. It also seems like a lot of fiddling around for someone trying to escape a murder scene.





It really does all come down to the forensics. Without the forensics, everything is just speculation. If the forensice can be successfully hidden as they have so far, they win. Unless some authority with jurisdiction decides to open an inquest, these questions will not be answered.

Completely agree. We speculate at a disadvantage for sure.

But without even a lab finding confirming of 'cat's blood', i don't see how one can maintain the prosecution must be correct in that assertion, and all others must be incorrect.

 

[carbonjam72]

If go into your kitchen and notice the shoulder of meat you bought is now on the floor half eaten and your dog or cat looks up at you with big innocent eyes and blood dripping down its chin, you don't need to take alibis, blood samples and paw prints.

You know who the culprit is.

The dog could have been framed by the cat. Or vice versa.

 

[Dan O.]

If go into your kitchen and notice the shoulder of meat you bought is now on the floor half eaten and your dog or cat looks up at you with big innocent eyes and blood dripping down its chin, you don't need to take alibis, blood samples and paw prints.

You know who the culprit is.

Good dog for fighting off the bad fox that tried to steal our food. Aww, I hope you aren't hurt bad. Looks like somebody is getting a special treat for dinner tonight.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

Anyway, I just drop in here from time to time to see if there's any news to be related, not to address easily refutable nonsense peddled by Vixen, which I'm sure clutters up every page. To get to my real point: how long a delay can we expect on the motivations report? I recall reading that breaches of the 90-day deadline are common, but does anyone know how long the delays are typically? Not that anything "typical" has ever offered a guide in this case ...