Rapture - 23rd September 2015

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I want to be clear where you are coming from. Yes, there is "wisdom" in the Bible. There is also a mass of unspeakable vileness and barbarism. Do you agree with that? Sometimes what is written turns out to be true, and sometimes it is manifestly false, or complete rubbish. Do you agree with that?

Another contradiction: who killed Goliath? Another: how many children did Saul's daughter Michal have?

Of course there is mention of some stuff that is considered "barbaric" in this day and age, but you have to remember we're talking about a culture from a few thousand years in the past.

Did the early Hebrews sacrifice? Certainly they did. Was there some confusion about "what" to sacrifice in the beginning of monotheism? Certainly there was. That's why we have the story of Abraham and Isaac, to teach the people that they should sacrifice the ram and not the child.

This was largely to get them away from Baal worship, which included sacrificing children. Remember Baal was the rock star god of polytheism. And that's a contradiction you should investigate. Since Baal was widely considered a "fertility god", most scholars agree that this "fertility" included fertility for crops and fertility for animals and man. So why would someone sacrifice their child hoping for children? Weird huh.

Who killed Goliath? David of course. 1 Samuel 17:50 Now, you weren't thinking of Goliath's brother were you?

Saul's daughter, I honestly don't know. I've never purposely studied her line, but I will now. Thanks. Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

AFAIK there was mention of it in Indian text , and Chinese text ("Zheng Shi") dating a few century BCE. That ostracism and isolation again is as old as there was leper.

OK document is called Feng Zhen Shi (damn memory) ~250BCE. Also there are written description describing that leprosity is contaminating and recommending not to sleep with the person dating back 800CE (look for Hansen Disease Books). Not as old as the OT but it shows that this was known for a long time and isolation recognized as a way to avoid contamination

Thanks, I first started checking out Chinese culture as it is pretty old. I like your thinking, the isolation would likely indicate they must come up with quarantine on their own, but until we have something that predates the OT account, anything's possible (the odd sailor etc). I've been unable to locate anything on quarantine prior mention to that in the Old Testament. It's been several years since I devoted any real work toward this though. I was unable to find anything then and after some recent googling it looks like nothing new has turned up, yet. It would be a big deal among scholars if something was located.
Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

You don't. I'll presume you missed the tone; so:

You said:
Which is silly, so I replied with hyperbole. How can the entire Bible be debunked? It's more slippery than a lamprey skating on silicon.

Then you continued:

Which is a contradiction because the Bible is literature, so I replied with sarcasm appropriate to the gaffe.

A little communication breakdown. No hard feelings. Chris B.

 

[Craig B]

Of course there is mention of some stuff that is considered "barbaric" in this day and age, but you have to remember we're talking about a culture from a few thousand years in the past.

And you have to remember that according to religious believers these things were done by God, or by people favoured by God, or done on the orders of God. Is God no better than a dozen clans of nomadic Bronze Age goatherds? If that is so, what is God for?

Who killed Goliath? David of course. 1 Samuel 17:50 Now, you weren't thinking of Goliath's brother were you?

No. See below.

Saul's daughter, I honestly don't know. I've never purposely studied her line, but I will now. Thanks. Chris B.

Do that. You'll find similar inconsistencies and falsifications.

Who killed Goliath?

David did (1 Samuel 17:50) - "Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand."

Elhanan did (2 Sam. 21:19) - "And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam."

Your "brother" is a falsification found in the AV and its derivatives.

The words the brother of are conjecturally inserted in the E. V. from 1 Chron. They are not found here in the Hebrew text, or in any of the ancient versions.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_samuel/21-19.htm

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

And you have to remember that according to religious believers these things were done by God, or by people favoured by God, or done on the orders of God. Is God no better than a dozen clans of nomadic Bronze Age goatherds? If that is so, what is God for? No. See below. Do that. You'll find similar inconsistencies and falsifications.

Who killed Goliath?

David did (1 Samuel 17:50) - "Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand."

Elhanan did (2 Sam. 21:19) - "And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam."

Your "brother" is a falsification found in the AV and its derivatives. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_samuel/21-19.htm

First part, the lesson of Abraham and Isaac was done by God.

I understand where you are coming from about Goliath. I had the same questions about this. From what I was able to decipher, most scholars agree it was an unintentional corruption in the text. Was the Goliath killed by David the same Goliath that was killed by Elhana? No, we're talking about a different guy. David's Goliath was already dead. Though their names were the same it does not mean they were the same person. My name is Chris, I have friends named Chris as well. We are different people. Chris B.

 

[Border Reiver]

I understand where you are coming from about Goliath. I had the same questions about this. From what I was able to decipher, most scholars agree it was an unintentional corruption in the text. Was the Goliath killed by David the same Goliath that was killed by Elhana? No, we're talking about a different guy. David's Goliath was already dead. Though their names were the same it does not mean they were the same person. My name is Chris, I have friends named Chris as well. We are different people. Chris B.

What are the odds that in Gath (Gittite is the term used for a citizen of Gath) during the time of the wars with Saul that there are two giants named Goliath, and that both would be champions?

The more plausible tale is that Elhanon's achievement was later ascribed to David. Very likely after David usurps Saul's throne, kills his buddy Abner, and consolidates his hold over the tribes. That way the scholars can justify Dave's rise to power, and ascribe it to David being beloved of God and more worthy of the kingship than Saul because of his victory over Goliath

 

[Nihilianth]

Second hilite: Israel had what we would refer to as a "militia" in the beginning. Of course the most action and warring occurred under the Kings Saul, David and Solomon IMO. [/quote]

Historical facts are NOT based on opinion. This proves you have no clue what you are talking about.

Personally, I precious little about ancient civilizations. (I'm more into Western Civilization from the Dark Ages to the present.)

I admit I know nothing about ancient history. Therefore, I cannot offer "MY OPINION" as to what happened when! If there is a gap in the historical record, expert historians do not offer "OPINIONS" either. Sometimes, they might have an educated guess (or a hypothesis.) But never an OPINION.

 

[Nihilianth]

First hilite: Nope, I'm not trying to figure it out at all. But, that's a nice partial quick reference list of a few important dates/facts, with some speculation included too. I suppose my favorite battle description comes from 2nd Kings. Concerning the siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrians and the end result. 2 Kings 19:35 "Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead."

Second hilite: Israel had what we would refer to as a "militia" in the beginning. Of course the most action and warring occurred under the Kings Saul, David and Solomon IMO.
David, and the Kings after him organized and equipped a regular army for Israel. Surprisingly, very little is written on how the army was organized. But I have no doubt King David, who was a "King" by the way and considered a little more than just "tribal leader" was in every respect a good military commander. King David was a military leader and had quite a vision for his Country. He created an army and devised a military conquest that would create an empire. After David became King, the country saw intense military activity. He attacked the Canaanite population centers in the north, and added Megiddo, Beth Shean, and Taanach to Israel's territory.

Surpisingly, missing from the list above would be the first two battles fought when David became King. The battles at Baal Perazim and Rephaim where he defeated the Philistines and forced them back to the coastal plains, thereby effectively ridding the area of their presense. Yes, under King David, Israel was quite a military power and he is one of my favorite Bible topics (as you can see) . Chris B.

*FACEPALM!*

I wasn't talking about that post. I was talking about THIS post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294057&page=5

I notice how you have conveniently, yet again, avoided that post.

Obfuscation noted. I will continue to refer you to that post until such time as you answer it. Thank you.

PS: You did make it up! Nowhere in modern English does the word "generation" refer to "race." Nowhere in ancient Greek does the word "γενεαὶ" refer to "race." Nowhere in the Bible does it use the word "generation" to mean "race." When the Bible refers to "race," it says "race," and more often than not, specifies a "race." And yet again, since you ignored my post, you cannot apply all of the multiple meanings of a modern English word, to an ancient word. You have failed completely to provide an example of the ancient Greek to have the extra meaning "race."

 

[Craig B]

Of course there is mention of some stuff that is considered "barbaric" in this day and age, but you have to remember we're talking about a culture from a few thousand years in the past.

I've already quoted RG Ingersoll on this. Here's another telling passage from his work on the Pentateuch.

Were we allowed to read the bible as we do all other books, we would admire its beauties, treasure its worthy thoughts, and account for all its absurd, grotesque and cruel things, by saying that its authors lived in rude, barbaric times. But we are told that it was written by inspired men; that it contains the will of God; that it is perfect, pure, and true in all its parts; the source and standard of all moral and religious truth; that it is the star and anchor of all human hope; the only guide for man, the only torch in Nature's night. These claims are so at variance with every known recorded fact, so palpably absurd, that every free, unbiased soul is forced to raise the standard of revolt.

(Mistakes of Moses) Indeed so.

I understand where you are coming from about Goliath. I had the same questions about this.

Then what did you mean by this post, when I first asked the question?

Who killed Goliath? David of course. 1 Samuel 17:50 Now, you weren't thinking of Goliath's brother were you?

See? You were fobbing me off with the "brother" explanation which you now admit you don't believe yourself!! Is this "witnessing to the Truth"? can you not see that it looks to non-religious people like pure chicanery.

For when you found out I was better informed, and only then, you switched to the "duplication" explanation. If scripture describes an event in two contradictory ways, well it must have happened twice, once one way and once the other.

From what I was able to decipher, most scholars agree it was an unintentional corruption in the text. Was the Goliath killed by David the same Goliath that was killed by Elhana? No, we're talking about a different guy. David's Goliath was already dead.

That's why I got you to look at Michal's children. In one passage she has none ever, in another, five sons. So she had none ever. She had five. It was her sister who had the five, say some versions - shades of Goliath's "brother". But you will tell me Saul had two daughters called Michal, who had different sized families, no doubt.

 

[Donn]

A little communication breakdown. No hard feelings. Chris B.

Great, so you confirm that the Bible is as mixed with fact and fiction as the stories of Romulus and Remus and King Arthur. Sorted.

 

[Nihilianth]

It is my opinion the tasks performed by the Hebrews as described were highly noteworthy. To discount them as nothing, and to further discount the area of Megiddo and its significance in the region is offensive to the culture IMO.

To question whether or not the Bible is true would certainly be an insult. Not only to the religion but also to the entire culture in general. I think you'd receive about the same reaction if you were claiming the accounts of the holocaust are made up and that it never really happened.
Chris B.

I live in Northcentral Pennsylvania. That's where my family comes from. It is not a "significant region," either militarily, transportation-wise, or even economically. (Sure, it had some good lumber resources in the 19th century, and currently has a decent amount of natural gas.)

Because of the area where my family and I come from is not strategically important, I should somehow be offended!? That it is in some way related to someone denying that I had a twin brother who died at the age of 14!? What sort of sick, twisted, illogical thinking is this?

 

[Nihilianth]

I want to be clear where you are coming from. Yes, there is "wisdom" in the Bible. There is also a mass of unspeakable vileness and barbarism. Do you agree with that? Sometimes what is written turns out to be true, and sometimes it is manifestly false, or complete rubbish. Do you agree with that?

Another contradiction: who killed Goliath? Another: how many children did Saul's daughter Michal have?

A broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Craig B]

A broken clock is right twice a day.

Is that why there's two Goliaths - one killed by David, and one by Elhanan? The broken clock strikes twice!

 

[Border Reiver]

Looking at it in a cynical light - David is taking credit for Elhanan's feat to bolster his claim to the throne and the redactor missed the 2 Samual reference. Much like the reference to Michal's children was missed - if all of Saul's bloodline are dead, then they very well can't dispute someone's claim to the throne now, can they?

 

[Nihilianth]

Is that why there's two Goliaths - one killed by David, and one by Elhanan? The broken clock strikes twice!

I wasnt referring to that part of your post, but I have to admit: that was funny.

 

[Craig B]

Looking at it in a cynical light - David is taking credit for Elhanan's feat to bolster his claim to the throne and the redactor missed the 2 Samual reference. Much like the reference to Michal's children was missed - if all of Saul's bloodline are dead, then they very well can't dispute someone's claim to the throne now, can they?

It's cynical but nonetheless very convincing and compelling. David is one of the vilest characters in the whole Tanakh, and that's saying quite a lot! Just sitting and perusing the accounts of his deeds one after another leaves the reader gasping with indignation.

What is all the more disquieting is that the redactors of the Tanakh set much of this down in quite a deadpan manner, as if it was perfectly normal and unexceptionable.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

What are the odds that in Gath (Gittite is the term used for a citizen of Gath) during the time of the wars with Saul that there are two giants named Goliath, and that both would be champions?

The more plausible tale is that Elhanon's achievement was later ascribed to David. Very likely after David usurps Saul's throne, kills his buddy Abner, and consolidates his hold over the tribes. That way the scholars can justify Dave's rise to power, and ascribe it to David being beloved of God and more worthy of the kingship than Saul because of his victory over Goliath

But that scenario is based on what you would like the book to mean, not on what it actually says. And, you'd also have to go back in time for that to work for you.

David's Goliath was already dead, unless he was to predate Jesus in the resurrection business, so he could be killed again, that's a major problem for the scenario. Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Second hilite: Israel had what we would refer to as a "militia" in the beginning. Of course the most action and warring occurred under the Kings Saul, David and Solomon IMO.

Historical facts are NOT based on opinion. This proves you have no clue what you are talking about.

Personally, I precious little about ancient civilizations. (I'm more into Western Civilization from the Dark Ages to the present.)

I admit I know nothing about ancient history. Therefore, I cannot offer "MY OPINION" as to what happened when! If there is a gap in the historical record, expert historians do not offer "OPINIONS" either. Sometimes, they might have an educated guess (or a hypothesis.) But never an OPINION.

Regarding my first sentence above: It's a fact the first regular army was created under King David.

Regarding my second sentence: It is my opinion that the battles after the creation of this regular army are the best described in the Bible. That's why I ended that sentence with "IMO". I'm having a conversation, not writing a dissertation. There is quite a difference you know.


If you feel I am misrepresenting something, please feel free correct me. If you have nothing to add but sarcasm, what's the point?
Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I've already quoted RG Ingersoll on this. Here's another telling passage from his work on the Pentateuch. (Mistakes of Moses) Indeed so. Then what did you mean by this post, when I first asked the question? See? You were fobbing me off with the "brother" explanation which you now admit you don't believe yourself!! Is this "witnessing to the Truth"? can you not see that it looks to non-religious people like pure chicanery.

For when you found out I was better informed, and only then, you switched to the "duplication" explanation. If scripture describes an event in two contradictory ways, well it must have happened twice, once one way and once the other.That's why I got you to look at Michal's children. In one passage she has none ever, in another, five sons. So she had none ever. She had five. It was her sister who had the five, say some versions - shades of Goliath's "brother". But you will tell me Saul had two daughters called Michal, who had different sized families, no doubt.

I had already suspected where you were about Goliath and his "brother" reference when you first mentioned him. That's common among the folks looking for a defect in the Bible. I have been in the exact same spot and know where you're coming from. But the simple explanation is that there was more than one guy with the same name. Nothing contradicts about Goliath, only the same name is repeated. I have a good friend named David. Don't know anyone named Goliath around here though, but I'll bet even today somebody somewhere answers to it.

About the daughter of Saul, I've not looked into her yet. Is that your beef about names? There could only be one of each person for each name ever?
If that's the thing about Saul's daughter I'm now starting to reconsider even looking it up. Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I live in Northcentral Pennsylvania. That's where my family comes from. It is not a "significant region," either militarily, transportation-wise, or even economically. (Sure, it had some good lumber resources in the 19th century, and currently has a decent amount of natural gas.)

Because of the area where my family and I come from is not strategically important, I should somehow be offended!? That it is in some way related to someone denying that I had a twin brother who died at the age of 14!? What sort of sick, twisted, illogical thinking is this?

That's what I asked myself about this post.
Chris B.