Rapture - 23rd September 2015

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Not particularly. What it tells me is that the tribal peoples who became the Israelites developed a national myth of how they came to be as a nation state, and as was common at the time the political state had deep ties to a particular diety.

If the entire Bible had been debunked I could agree with your assessment, but it hasn't. There's the problem with that view.

There are other such coincidences - the existence of the city of Rome does not validate the legend of Romulus and Remus, the mention of a battle at Badon Hill in "On the Ruin and Conquest of Britain" by Gildas does not prove that Arthur was a King, and the Tomb of Agamemmnon does not make Achilles a real person.

Literature is for entertainment. I don't see any connection to these stories with the Bible though. If you argue that because these examples exist the Bible must be considered the same, there aren't words to express how incorrect that is.

If you hold out a Book of Faith as a Book of History, then its fair game for the application of the historical method. That some people are so insecure in their faith that they cannot accept that the myths they hold as part of their religion are not real events then their faith is not very strong to begin with.

That's the thing. Although we cannot corroborate every single story in the Bible, there is wisdom in it. And sometimes we find what is written turns out to be true. There are many examples of this. Using the passages in the Bible to determine locations of ancient cities is one. It has happened. So then are we to assume that the location detailed is the only thing correct?
Another example would be my favorite Bible battle discussed in 2nd Kings. The Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem yet were defeated. This is also recorded in the Assyrian contemporary culture. It happened, and yet we can still argue about the detail specifics of the battle. But should we? We have a record.

And I believe that blasphemers against Islam are supposed to be beheaded, not hung.

Well, being hung is an expression used by my culture as a way of saying "you will be killed" since the Muslims have so many well thought out methods of killing someone I'd hate to pin it down to just the one.
Chris B.

 

[Astreja]

I get that. But we should understand that we may not know the reason behind the things they did that seem nonsensical to us now until we make the effort to investigate what those things were and why they did them.

Well, personally I think that there's nothing the least bit supernatural about those reasons and that the stories exist solely to culturally encode best practices that were already know to the more astute members of the tribe.

Some of the practices in the Bible seem to tie in with modern science as well. The practice of quarantine for example, comes from the Bible and a time where man could have no idea that germs existed simply because it was impossible for them to see a germ. Yet, they knew in certain exposures people must be quarantined. Brow raising.

Not really -- I think quarantining sick people predates the Bible by a considerable amount of time.

It may also be a biologically-motivated protective mechanism. Sick animals present with signs that could easily be red flags to the herd: They're lethargic, slow-moving, neglect grooming, and otherwise behave in unusual ways. A herd that observes these behaviours and distances itself from the sick animal could easily out-survive a herd that ignores the signs.

 

[Border Reiver]

If the entire Bible had been debunked I could agree with your assessment, but it hasn't. There's the problem with that view.

I like historical fiction. I know the Napoleonic Wars happened, and that certain battles took place in Portugal and Spain - this does not mean that Captain (brevet Lt. Col) Richard Sharpe is a historical figure or that the events encapsulated in Bernard Sharpe's novels are history. Given that many of the events described in the OT cannot be corroborated by anything other than the OT, I presume that they are literature, national myths, campfire stories.

Literature is for entertainment. I don't see any connection to these stories with the Bible though. If you argue that because these examples exist the Bible must be considered the same, there aren't words to express how incorrect that is.

I argue that they are on a level with the stories of the Bible because there is as much corroborating evidence for Arthur, Romulus and Remus, Hiawatha, et al, as there is for Moses, Abraham, and the rest. If your argument is that because some stories collected in a book written over a span of centuries must be true because other parts can be corroborated that the entire book is true, then there is a word for how incorrect that is "special pleading."

That's the thing. Although we cannot corroborate every single story in the Bible, there is wisdom in it. And sometimes we find what is written turns out to be true. There are many examples of this. Using the passages in the Bible to determine locations of ancient cities is one. It has happened. So then are we to assume that the location detailed is the only thing correct?
Another example would be my favorite Bible battle discussed in 2nd Kings. The Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem yet were defeated. This is also recorded in the Assyrian contemporary culture. It happened, and yet we can still argue about the detail specifics of the battle. But should we? We have a record.

Your favourite example is NOT an example of the Bible being correct though - the city of Jerusalem paid tribute to the Assyrians (which is corroborated) in order to avoid being sacked - that's not defeating an opponent, that's paying protection money.

The Bible's account is part of a national myth - taking an event and spinning it to look good to future generations. For a modern example see the "undefeated in the field" story told by the German government to its army apres WWI. Yes the German Army was still in parts of Belguim and France - that it was in no shape to actually keep fighting or to resist the Allied armies is conveniently left out of the story.

Well, being hung is an expression used by my culture as a way of saying "you will be killed" since the Muslims have so many well thought out methods of killing someone I'd hate to pin it down to just the one.
Chris B.

EVERY human culture has a lot of well thought out methods of killing people. It's what we are.

 

[Donn]

If the entire Bible had been debunked I could agree with your assessment, but it hasn't. There's the problem with that view.

Debunked down to the atomic level, and beyond. Sounds reasonable.

Literature is for entertainment. I don't see any connection to these stories with the Bible though.

Because the Bible is in no way literature.

.. there aren't words to express how incorrect that is.

Agreed.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Well, personally I think that there's nothing the least bit supernatural about those reasons and that the stories exist solely to culturally encode best practices that were already know to the more astute members of the tribe.

And I agree. We don't have to attach supernatural meaning to the text in order to appreciate there is some wisdom found within it. Doesn't mean we have to worship anyone or anything just because we may agree with certain teachings.

Not really -- I think quarantining sick people predates the Bible by a considerable amount of time.

It may also be a biologically-motivated protective mechanism. Sick animals present with signs that could easily be red flags to the herd: They're lethargic, slow-moving, neglect grooming, and otherwise behave in unusual ways. A herd that observes these behaviours and distances itself from the sick animal could easily out-survive a herd that ignores the signs.

As far as examples of quarantine that predate the Bible, I've not found any. Again this does not mean we should consider anything supernatural as the explanation as you point out it may have been as simple as the tribal elders understood the practice by studying the animals they kept and how they reacted or when their healthy animals were exposed to the sickly ones.

Or we can even reasonably assume someone had been exposed to food poisoning at some point from eating an animal that had been dead too long and this could explain this fear/quarantine of the "unclean". The whole point is it was a good practice to be taught within the Bible and other contemporary cultures that lacked exposure to this fact undoubtedly suffered more from disease because of that lack of knowledge.
Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I like historical fiction. I know the Napoleonic Wars happened, and that certain battles took place in Portugal and Spain - this does not mean that Captain (brevet Lt. Col) Richard Sharpe is a historical figure or that the events encapsulated in Bernard Sharpe's novels are history. Given that many of the events described in the OT cannot be corroborated by anything other than the OT, I presume that they are literature, national myths, campfire stories.



I argue that they are on a level with the stories of the Bible because there is as much corroborating evidence for Arthur, Romulus and Remus, Hiawatha, et al, as there is for Moses, Abraham, and the rest. If your argument is that because some stories collected in a book written over a span of centuries must be true because other parts can be corroborated that the entire book is true, then there is a word for how incorrect that is "special pleading."




Your favourite example is NOT an example of the Bible being correct though - the city of Jerusalem paid tribute to the Assyrians (which is corroborated) in order to avoid being sacked - that's not defeating an opponent, that's paying protection money.
The Bible's account is part of a national myth - taking an event and spinning it to look good to future generations. For a modern example see the "undefeated in the field" story told by the German government to its army apres WWI. Yes the German Army was still in parts of Belguim and France - that it was in no shape to actually keep fighting or to resist the Allied armies is conveniently left out of the story.



EVERY human culture has a lot of well thought out methods of killing people. It's what we are.

Foul ball, read 2nd Kings. The campaign against Jersualem happened after the tribute had been paid. It's a very fascinating chapter and I assure you it is worthy of investigation if you really are interested. One heck of a soap opera of conflict. Chris B.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Debunked down to the atomic level, and beyond. Sounds reasonable.


Because the Bible is in no way literature.


Agreed.

Because you say so? I don't think so. There's more to it than that.
Chris B.

 

[Donn]

Because you say so? I don't think so. There's more to it than that.

Because I say so what?

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Debunked down to the atomic level, and beyond. Sounds reasonable.


Because the Bible is in no way literature.


Agreed.

Because I say so what?

As per your previous post of course. That's what. You make declaratory statements not backed up by anything other than your having said it.

Show me.

Chris B.

 

[Donn]

I don't sequitur your nons.

 

[Leumas]

..
Some of the practices in the Bible seem to tie in with modern science as well. The practice of quarantine for example, comes from the Bible and a time where man could have no idea that germs existed simply because it was impossible for them to see a germ. Yet, they knew in certain exposures people must be quarantined. Brow raising.
Chris B.

Wow... I think your own words below express exactly the appropriate response to your above bare assertions.

there aren't words to express how incorrect that is

Unfortunately for your special pleading and CULTURAL SERVILITY, history and archaeology and sociology and anthropology and psychology and biology and almost every -ogy we have prove your statements are utter RUBBISH!

All the civilizations listed below managed to survive and last and conquer and construct monuments that we still have today as proof of their cultural achievements without the PURPORTED biblical "wisdom" rubbish you very mistakenly assume was unique.

In all cases their artifacts and monuments STILL STANDING prove that their cultures were immensely SOPHISTICATED and the lengths of time they stayed thriving is a testament to their ability to medicate themselves without the amazing claptrap described in the Bible (read Leviticus).

If the Bible was so clever it would have told people how to make the simple penicillin to cure leprosy instead of using sprinkled blood of slaughtered animals and burning their torn limbs and entrails and then to throw the person out of the camp and burn all things s/he ever touched.

To distinguish itself from all the other civilizations around it the bible should have explained that the blood of slaughtered animals does not cure any diseases nor does it atone for sins and that God does not really enjoy the sweet savory smell of burning flesh.

• Egyptians
• Sumerians
• Babylonians
• Assyrians
• Hittites
• Persians
• Canaanites
• Philistines
• Celts
• Etruscans
• Carthiginians
• Abyssinians
• Chinese
• Japanese
• Hindus
• Mayans
• Aztecs
• Incas
• Toltecs
• Polynesians
• ETC. Etc. Etc.

 

[Craig B]

Although we cannot corroborate every single story in the Bible, there is wisdom in it. And sometimes we find what is written turns out to be true. There are many examples of this. Using the passages in the Bible to determine locations of ancient cities is one. It has happened. So then are we to assume that the location detailed is the only thing correct?
Another example would be my favorite Bible battle discussed in 2nd Kings. The Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem yet were defeated. This is also recorded in the Assyrian contemporary culture. It happened, and yet we can still argue about the detail specifics of the battle. But should we? We have a record.

I want to be clear where you are coming from. Yes, there is "wisdom" in the Bible. There is also a mass of unspeakable vileness and barbarism. Do you agree with that? Sometimes what is written turns out to be true, and sometimes it is manifestly false, or complete rubbish. Do you agree with that?

Another contradiction: who killed Goliath? Another: how many children did Saul's daughter Michal have?

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

I don't sequitur your nons.

I see, well it was you that stated the Bible has been "Debunked down to the atomic level, and beyond." I disagree of course, in this case I think you voice opinion and that's fine, for whatever reason.

Then you stated: "Because the Bible is in no way literature." I disagree with this as well. It's undoubtedly one of the most important texts ever written. I realize it may differ in beliefs when compared with other religious texts, but like the others, it's still a good text for study. One doesn't have to assign any sort of spiritual meaning to it in order to enjoy what's written in the Bible or the Koran etc.
Chris B.

 

[Border Reiver]

Foul ball, read 2nd Kings. The campaign against Jersualem happened after the tribute had been paid. It's a very fascinating chapter and I assure you it is worthy of investigation if you really are interested. One heck of a soap opera of conflict. Chris B.

Are your referring to 2 Kings 15:19-20?

Because in that story, King Menahem paid protection money, no mention of a battle against the Assyrians.

Subsequent chapters in 2 Kings (16-18) relate the tributary status of Israel to Assyria. 2 Kings 19 describes an angel going out an killing 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in a single night on behalf of King Hezekiah and because of this defeat King Sennecharib of Assyria was killed by his sons, and was succeeded by Esarhaddon.

Now this last bit is somewhat supported by the Assyrian narrative - except that whole loss of an Assyrian army deal. The dates also do not support the biblical narrative. Sennecharib compaigned in Syria-Palestine around 701-699 BCE and his assassination did not happen until 681 BCE - 18 years later. Scholars who have studied the area note that Hezekiah got to keep his throne because he paid tribute to Assyria. There are discrepencies between the Assyrian and Biblical narratives, and scholars are of the belief that greater weight should be given to the Assyrian narrative.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Wow... I think your own words below express exactly the appropriate response to your above bare assertions.




Unfortunately for your special pleading and CULTURAL SERVILITY, history and archaeology and sociology and anthropology and psychology and biology and almost every -ogy we have prove your statements are utter RUBBISH!

All the civilizations listed below managed to survive and last and conquer and construct monuments that we still have today as proof of their cultural achievements without the PURPORTED biblical "wisdom" rubbish you very mistakenly assume was unique.

In all cases their artifacts and monuments STILL STANDING prove that their cultures were immensely SOPHISTICATED and the lengths of time they stayed thriving is a testament to their ability to medicate themselves without the amazing claptrap described in the Bible (read Leviticus).

If the Bible was so clever it would have told people how to make the simple penicillin to cure leprosy instead of using sprinkled blood of slaughtered animals and burning their torn limbs and entrails and then to throw the person out of the camp and burn all things s/he ever touched.

To distinguish itself from all the other civilizations around it the bible should have explained that the blood of slaughtered animals does not cure any diseases nor does it atone for sins and that God does not really enjoy the sweet savory smell of burning flesh.

• Egyptians
• Sumerians
• Babylonians
• Assyrians
• Hittites
• Persians
• Canaanites
• Philistines
• Celts
• Etruscans
• Carthiginians
• Abyssinians
• Chinese
• Japanese
• Hindus
• Mayans
• Aztecs
• Incas
• Toltecs
• Polynesians
• ETC. Etc. Etc.

That's an interesting opinion you've shared. I wonder, out of all those cultures listed can you show me one that specifically details a procedure of quarantine? One found previously to that of the Bible's specific instructions of it? I'd be interested to know if there are other examples present as I've not been able to find any earlier knowledge of quarantine that predates those listed in the Old Testament books of the Bible. Chris B.

 

[Aepervius]

And I agree. We don't have to attach supernatural meaning to the text in order to appreciate there is some wisdom found within it. Doesn't mean we have to worship anyone or anything just because we may agree with certain teachings.



As far as examples of quarantine that predate the Bible, I've not found any. Again this does not mean we should consider anything supernatural as the explanation as you point out it may have been as simple as the tribal elders understood the practice by studying the animals they kept and how they reacted or when their healthy animals were exposed to the sickly ones.

Or we can even reasonably assume someone had been exposed to food poisoning at some point from eating an animal that had been dead too long and this could explain this fear/quarantine of the "unclean". The whole point is it was a good practice to be taught within the Bible and other contemporary cultures that lacked exposure to this fact undoubtedly suffered more from disease because of that lack of knowledge.
Chris B.

Only if that fact was unknown which is doubtful. Since even animals "avoid" the one which are sick in the herd, I find it quite a claim to state that human did not practice it either.

in fact leper ostracism is one of the oldest and predate the discovery of the bacteria causing it.

In fact we found a LOT of medicinal Egyptian text, AFAIK predating israelite tribes by a lot, and yet beside the bible none are found from Israelite source.

The only difference is that we found reference to something similar to quarantine in the bible. that does not mean it was unknown or something invended by Israeli tribes. It only means this is the oldest text where we found it.

That lack of knowledge is doubtful, as when epidemic stroke, LONG before people knew what caused them, they isolated the sicks.

 

[Aepervius]

That's an interesting opinion you've shared. I wonder, out of all those cultures listed can you show me one that specifically details a procedure of quarantine? One found previously to that of the Bible's specific instructions of it? I'd be interested to know if there are other examples present as I've not been able to find any earlier knowledge of quarantine that predates those listed in the Old Testament books of the Bible. Chris B.

AFAIK there was mention of it in Indian text , and Chinese text ("Zheng Shi") dating a few century BCE. That ostracism and isolation again is as old as there was leper.

 

[Donn]

I see..

You don't. I'll presume you missed the tone; so:

You said:

If the entire Bible had been debunked I could agree with your assessment, but it hasn't.

Which is silly, so I replied with hyperbole. How can the entire Bible be debunked? It's more slippery than a lamprey skating on silicon.

Then you continued:

Literature is for entertainment. I don't see any connection to these stories with the Bible though. If you argue that because these examples exist the Bible must be considered the same, there aren't words to express how incorrect that is.

Which is a contradiction because the Bible is literature, so I replied with sarcasm appropriate to the gaffe.

 

[Aepervius]

OK document is called Feng Zhen Shi (damn memory) ~250BCE. Also there are written description describing that leprosity is contaminating and recommending not to sleep with the person dating back 800CE (look for Hansen Disease Books). Not as old as the OT but it shows that this was known for a long time and isolation recognized as a way to avoid contamination

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Are your referring to 2 Kings 15:19-20?

Because in that story, King Menahem paid protection money, no mention of a battle against the Assyrians.

Subsequent chapters in 2 Kings (16-18) relate the tributary status of Israel to Assyria. 2 Kings 19 describes an angel going out an killing 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in a single night on behalf of King Hezekiah and because of this defeat King Sennecharib of Assyria was killed by his sons, and was succeeded by Esarhaddon.

Now this last bit is somewhat supported by the Assyrian narrative - except that whole loss of an Assyrian army deal. The dates also do not support the biblical narrative. Sennecharib compaigned in Syria-Palestine around 701-699 BCE and his assassination did not happen until 681 BCE - 18 years later. Scholars who have studied the area note that Hezekiah got to keep his throne because he paid tribute to Assyria. There are discrepencies between the Assyrian and Biblical narratives, and scholars are of the belief that greater weight should be given to the Assyrian narrative.

No, but oh what a hornet's nest. That's a very interesting section and there's alot of throne grabbing/soap opera stuff going on in it, but my favorite part starts around 2 Kings 18:1 when Hezekiah becomes king at the ripe old age of 25.

Hezekiah was able to get away with not paying tribute for several years but sure enough, 14 years later Sennacherib king of Assyria decides he's going to take all the important northern cities (the tougher fortified ones). It wasn't until the Assyrians took Lachish (verified in their culture) that Hezekiah started to panic. (We're talking the Assyrian army is now only about 30 miles from Jerusalem at this point) And so he rushes an envoy off to Lachish to pay off Sennacherib so he won't sack Jerusalem. 2 Kings 18:14 " Then Hezekiah king of Judah sent to the king of Assyria at Lachish, saying, "I have done wrong. Withdraw from me; whatever you impose on me I will bear." So the king of Assyria required of Hezekiah king of Judah three hundred talents of silver and thirty talents of gold."

And now comes the funny part, Sennacherib sent his troops directly from Lachish straight to Jerusalem after being paid off! Hezekiah is so shaken by this he actually starts thinking about making an alliance with Egypt of all places! I honestly don't believe they could make this stuff up. Anyway, the reason I like this particular section is that we have verification that the Assyrians defeated and took Lachish in both cultures, and we have verification they also laid siege to Jerusalem in both cultures. Though the outcome was not verified in the Assyrian culture, the siege was.
Chris B.