ChrisBFRPKY
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Rapture - 23rd September 2015
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HansMustermann
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Not sure what it has to do with anything. Except, I suppose, if you want to try to reconstruct whether a particular phrase would have worked that way in Aramaic.
HansMustermann
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The point, however, is that we CAN find plenty of people referring to it as "car", "automobile", or "vehicle". If they told me to get into the tent, I wouldn't look around for a car, just in case they meant a totally different meaning of the word than everyone else uses it for.
Basically, find similar support for the postulated meaning of "genea" and you might have an argument. Otherwise, I'm still not impressed.
In fact, otherwise it seems to me like funnily YOU are the one rewriting it by just postulating that word X actually means Y, and only in the place where you'd find it more palatable to read Y instead of X.
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No... Jesus was a fictive character written in an anti-Judaism set of fictional writings.
Have a look at some more anti-Jewish despotic edicts put in the mouth of Jesus the fictional character in the writings of people trying to malign Judaism and Jews.
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But even that backfires upon the abysmal casuistry.
Not to mention of course that his very own link proves him wrong as I have shown here.
But let's for argument's sake grant him his special pleading and bare assertions (on top of ad hominems).
As I have shown here he is not doing Jesus a favor.
By trying to make him not a liar he made him into a moronic despot.... not much of an apologetic I'd say!!
His argument is that in Matthew 24:34 "generation" = "the entire Jewish race" until they stop "kicking".
Granted that for argument's sake despite his very own citation proving him wrong, Jesus turns out to have said nonsense and that on top of utterly vile hateful racist abuse of an entire race of people for ever (see here for more of that abusive hate).
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tsig
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bible scholars motto:
When in difficulty, when in doubt
Redefine words it'll give you an out.
HansMustermann
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@Leumas
Well, sorta. You're talking of different things. You're trying to find a consistent meaning of "genea", while he rejects that, pretty much. The idea is basically that "genea" means "generation" where it's palatable to read it as "generation", but means "race" where reading it as "generation" would present a problem.
Basically if reading it as "generation" would make Jesus wrong in Matt 17:17, then it means "race" there. If reading it as "race" would make Jesus sound racist in Matt 12:39, then it means "generation" there
There's a reason why I said it's the same old playing mad-libs with the words, really. Or I guess it's one illustration of what Randi used to call "like trying to nail Jello to a wall."
Mind you, I'm not saying that even that would salvage his argument, or not entirely, but there we go.
Well, sorta. You're talking of different things. You're trying to find a consistent meaning of "genea", while he rejects that, pretty much. The idea is basically that "genea" means "generation" where it's palatable to read it as "generation", but means "race" where reading it as "generation" would present a problem.
Basically if reading it as "generation" would make Jesus wrong in Matt 17:17, then it means "race" there. If reading it as "race" would make Jesus sound racist in Matt 12:39, then it means "generation" there
There's a reason why I said it's the same old playing mad-libs with the words, really. Or I guess it's one illustration of what Randi used to call "like trying to nail Jello to a wall."
Mind you, I'm not saying that even that would salvage his argument, or not entirely, but there we go.
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UnrepentantRed
Student
An interesting article on the website secular Web on the failures of Daniels prophecies here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html
Under the dispensationalist view of Daniels seven weeks prophecy they criticise the use of the "biblical year" calendar when the Jews did not use this as their calendar has 354 days in it, and the biblical year fails to provide consistency with other prophecies in the bible.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html
Under the dispensationalist view of Daniels seven weeks prophecy they criticise the use of the "biblical year" calendar when the Jews did not use this as their calendar has 354 days in it, and the biblical year fails to provide consistency with other prophecies in the bible.
As I have shown here and in other threads, it invariably seems to be out of the frying pan, into the fire, unfortunately for most apologists and casuists.
You see long ago such casuistry worked as an out with benighted sheep because the apologists could get away with trying to make "the entire Jewish race" stop "kicking" so as to bring Jesus back and thus continue to believe that he did not just tell a pack of lies.
It was not considered long ago as bad of Jesus to malign the Jews because of course in the apologists' vitiated brains the Jews deserved it for not believing in Jesus.
Fortunately it now is no longer acceptable for Jesus to curse to death the "Jewish nation" as a fruitless fig tree that deserves felling down or to maligning "the entire Jewish race" for all time until they stop "kicking" as evil, adulterous, wicked, faithless, perverse, sinful, and in other verses labeling them as murderous children of the devil and devils.... at least for most people I hope!!!
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@Leumas
Well, sorta. You're talking of different things. You're trying to find a consistent meaning of "genea", while he rejects that, pretty much. The idea is basically that "genea" means "generation" where it's palatable to read it as "generation", but means "race" where reading it as "generation" would present a problem.
Basically if reading it as "generation" would make Jesus wrong in Matt 17:17, then it means "race" there. If reading it as "race" would make Jesus sound racist in Matt 12:39, then it means "generation" there
There's a reason why I said it's the same old playing mad-libs with the words, really. Or I guess it's one illustration of what Randi used to call "like trying to nail Jello to a wall."
Mind you, I'm not saying that even that would salvage his argument, or not entirely, but there we go.
Yes... but even in the very same verse... it is worse for Jesus to say that generation means the Jews.
I am not just talking about applying the meaning anywhere else which is also a problem for Jesus' image.
No... just the same verse.... here let's have a look at it with the word generation replaced as he said with the phrase "the entire Jewish race".
Matthew 24:34
- Verily I say unto you,
This generation (γενεὰ)the entire Jewish race shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Read it now... does it make sense?
What exactly does it mean to say that the Jews will still be around and "kicking" when all those things will come to pass? Does that mean tomorrow or 100 years or 1000 or 2000 or WHEN?
He says that since the Jews are still around and have not yet stopped "kicking" this means that Jesus is not a liar because right up to the day the Jews stop "kicking" Jesus still has time to make all these things pass.
This is heinous to say the least in that it is hoping for the EXTINCTION of "the entire Jewish race" so as to finally bring about Jesus' promises.
But more importantly, we have here Jesus making a promise that is UTTERLY MEANINGLESS.
If I tell you TODAY that I will give you $100 TOMORROW and then the next day you come to claim the $100 and I tell you well it is not TOMORROW would you come back to claim the $100 again the next day?
What goes through your mind if I tell you that before the white rhinoceros goes extinct I will give you $1M?
What would you say if instead I said that before the human race goes extinct I will give you $1M?
According to the illogic of this casuistic, Jesus in this verse itself (forget the others) was using CHICANERY and making EMPTY PROMISES just as meaningless as the $100 promise above or the end of the human race one.
Or else, Jesus was insinuating that the Jews are as an endangered race as the white rhino example above and inciting the extermination of the entire Jewish race so as to precipitate the fulfillment of his promises as many have in fact tried and are still trying to do so.
But all this is pointless since his own citation proves him wrong
3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews
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Nihilianth
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^^^ This. Something that I have had to keep telling my crazy Super Catholic family about, as they keep insisting that the Rapture is "going to be within our lifetime."
tsig
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Apologists insist that the bible is full of weasel words that change their meanings like chameleons but if that is so how can we understand any of Jesus's sayings?
Beelzebuddy
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They'll tell you what it means.
HansMustermann
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Theology has an answer to that too, which incidentally is the same that the Fan Dumb have on other domains: see, you're not a REAL fan if you interpret it otherwise.
*AHEM*
Sorry, I mean, they have the HOLY SPIRIT to decypher it for them. If you read it otherwise, obviously you don't have the holy spook in you.
Many Jewish commentators have taken a different view. May I refer you to the various writings of the late Hyam Maccoby, who believes Jesus to have been a messianic agitator. I sympathise with this. Although Jesus is depicted in some of the ways you describe, he is also depicted as an observant Jew. It is only too likely that later hands introduced the anti-Jewish material into the NT, but why would they then depict him as a Jew, attending the Temple? Or being immersed in the Jordan by John for the atonement of sins. There seems here to be a core of material identifying him as a Jewish preacher.
As to the "generations", you are without question right. The prophecy is clear, and was falsified with the decease of that generation. But why assume Jesus to have been a liar? Perhaps he was, but only too many religious enthusiasts in times of stress think they see the signs of the coming Kingdom of God, and proclaim this to anyone who will listen. They are deluded, but not necessarily deceitful.
barehl
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I already quoted a number of unrelated passages that have been used to create a Franken-doctrine. Those are irrelevant. Link to something indicating that someone stated the actual doctrine of the Rapture as given in the 1800s, the notion that people would suddenly disappear as a sign of the end times.
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barehl
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This isn't that complicated. If the Rapture as portrayed in the Left Behind series was common doctrine 1800 years ago there should be volumes on it in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.
barehl
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Maybe I'm just not quite comprehending what you are saying. Thessalonians was after Jesus' death. Are you claiming that Jesus kept the Rapture a secret? Or was Paul the first person to come along who could handle the truth?
barehl
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I guess I missed the part in Mark about people disappearing. Could you point that out again?