General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[CORed]

There are many conspiracies out there. That the U.S. was behind the 9-11 attacks, the moon landing being faked, the earth being 6000 years old, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. Keep in mind a couple old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty" and "History is written by the victors."

About a year ago, I ran across something interesting on the internet. You can see it too by entering into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths." You should be able to find some old Red Cross documents that say that only about 271,000 Jews died in Nazi "concentration camps." Not 6 million. Diging around a little, I saw that these documents were apparently classified and buried in some archive for decades. They were declassified and released sometime in the 70's. From that standpoint, it would seem that holocaust deniers did have a leg to stand on.

Then a few monts ago, at a political forum I heard about a documentary that can be seen for free on the internet. It's called, "Adolf Hitler: The greatest story NEVER told." It was overly long. Six hours long in fact. It took me three or four days to watch it all. But here and there throughout it, I discovered information that was amazing. The holocaust was indeed largely a hoax! It is incredible the degree to which the American people have been lied to! Almost every night somewhere in TV, they have some show on about the supposedly "evil" Nazis and the atrocities they supposedly committed. It's all a bunch of lying propaganda horse"poop"!

Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of the documentary invite you to do at the end of it. Look up the facts for yourself.

So, Hitler was slandered as the murderer of six million Jews when He murdered a mere 271,000. What a travesty!

 

[Loss Leader]

Did the Nazis invite them in as observers?

Actually, yes. The Nazis invited in the Red Cross and then lied to them about absolutely everything. including setting up a fake camp for them to tour.

For Jews in internment camps, war do doubt caused many deaths from disease and starvation.

This begs the question: Why were the Jews in internment camps to begin with?

For example, one of the most infamous "death camps" was Buchenwald.

Wrong. Buchenwald, like all camps on German soil, was not a "death camp," and had no gassing facilities. All the death camps were located in Poland.

Still, Buchenwald managed to kill about 25% of its internees. No idea how many who passed through Buchenwald were eventually killed in other camps.

Nobody said that Hitler was perfect. But he was a hell of a lot better than Stalin.

That has to be the single weakest defense of anything that I have ever read. The Bubonic Plague killed fewer people than Stalin.

 

[KatieG]

So where is the link to these 'documents'?
Is it just the Americans that were lied to or is it all the rest of the world as well?
I knew two men that were in the forces that relieved two the camps, they were there and saw it.
Were they lairs as well?

My uncle was part of the forces that liberated one of those camps. He still can't talk about it without getting teary. I know he's not a liar.

 

[Ladewig]

Everything I learned about WW II is a lie.

So, there was no European Theater of Conflict?
Germany and Britain were not at war?
V2 rockets never existed?
U-boats didn't sink allied convoys?
There were no D-Day landings?

 

[H'ethetheth]

Here's the document in question:

http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg

Can anyone read German?

A "beurkundeter Sterbefall", which is what the document speaks of, means there is something like a certificate or other document to verifiy someone's death or their life beforehand, so I take this to mean it's the number of German citizens who died in the camps, since this kind of document from other countries may not be available to the Red Cross in Germany.
The number of German Jews "missing" after the war is 210,000, so 270,000 total German camp deaths seems to be in the right ball park.

Either that, or it's what Halcyon Dayz says. I don't really see another explanation for this.

 

[CORed]

Cultsmasher, do you seriously think your Holocaust denial is anything new?

I'm pretty sure I've seen virtually identical claims from other holocaust deniers in this very thread.

 

[grmcdorman]

The Red Cross claim was discussed. As others have said, it's registered deaths. The vast majority of the killing was not registered.

 

[BStrong]

Beliz,
I have been banned from about every political and Atheist forum there is. Why? For telling people the truth. I have written many threads at many forums. I have debated many hundreds of people about what I wrote in those threads. Except for one rather flippant thread, nobody has ever sucessfully refuted anything I said in those threads. Why? Because I'm everybody's intellectual superior when it come to the topics I talk about. Some of which dealt with the Jews and what they "deserve." If you want me to bring it up here, why don't you just say, "Why don't you get yourself banned." Believe me, I am an expert on the topic. You don't want to know the truth. Those at this forum almost certainly don't want me to speak it.

You also ask for evidence. Watch the documentary. In the meantime, go to your google browser and enter, "How many Jews were deported under "The Haavara Agreement." About four websites down, you should find a website that asks that very question. It is hosted by "Yahoo, answers." In it, they have what they call, "The Best Answer." Read it. But don't stop there, look up the havarra agreement anyplace you like. Just keep in mind that those who want to continue the holocaust fable will no doubt have their own distortions or lies to tell.

My faith in the 'net is partially restored.

Define "Debate," because all I've seen here and elsewhere is posting assertions as fact and refusing to accept documented evidence from reliable sources and embracing crackpots discredited (in some instances) decades ago.

You must inhabit a small pond.

On being 86'd, that I believe.

As opposed to holocaust deniers that are simply attempting in their small way to clear the good name of Adolph Hitler?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Captain Swoop,
Link link link I have heard others who want to avoid the truth say the same thing. I don't have a link. But try this. Go to the edge of your screen and slide it over. Then open a new browser screen. Enter into it what I suggested. Next, yes they did lie to the rest of the wirld as well. In some countries, you can be thrown in jail for questioning the holocaust. If the holocaust was real, those kinds of extreme measures wouldn't be necessary.

As to the soldiers you mentioned, they may not have been lying. Completely. You see, by the time that camps were being liberated, Germany had the hell bombed out of it. Things were pretty grim for the average German citizen. Do you suppose that those in Jewish internment camps would have fared as well? How would the soldiers know if the dead bodies they found died from something like typhus outbreaks or something else. Just because they found the camps in a certain condition doesn't mean that's the way they always were.

In the documentary I mentioned, they have people who were actually IN prison camps TELLING you that things weren't as bad as they were made out to be. They would have no reason to lie. But for those who for various reason want to maintain the lie of the holocaust, they have zillions of reasons to lie.

How can you say the Holocaust didn't happen? Try explaining this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLAZQyXSx9w

 

[Degeneve]

Captian Swoop,
No. I don't have a link. But if what I suggested doesn't work, type into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that say that only 271,000 Jews died in concentration camps." That should bring them right up at the top of the list.

That only 271,000 Jews died in concentrations camps might be true.

As a matter of fact, 3 millions of others died from gassing in extermination camps (which are not the same as concentration camps, as you appArently ignore), 1,5 millions died from being shot down by the firing squads of the Einsatzgruppen and of the Ordnungspoliezi in Ukraine, Russia and other East countries, and one more million simply died from starvation and bad treatments in the (mainly Polish) ghettos.

And all this happened out of sight of any red cross responsible.

 

[Degeneve]

It talks about be-urkundeten Sterbe-falle.
It means something like "certificated deaths."

I would assume that such would require the name of the victim, and the time, place, and circumstances of the death.
Since most witnesses were murdered most Holocaust victims will never have one. They were recorded as being put on a transport and there the paper trail ends.

Furthermore the document also adds in den einzelnen Konzentrazionslagern, which should be translated as "in the concentrations camps only".

In other words this must be understood as not including the extermination camps (named Vernichtungslagern in German).

With respect to the "be-urkundeten Sterbe-falle" it is clear that this can only concern inmates who had be registered upon entrance in these concentration camps. As we know, Jews dispatched to the gas chambers upon arrival have never been registered and no counts of the deaths has been kept by the nazis (or they have deleted them).

 

[CORed]

My faith in the 'net is partially restored.

Define "Debate," because all I've seen here and elsewhere is posting assertions as fact and refusing to accept documented evidence from reliable sources and embracing crackpots discredited (in some instances) decades ago.

You must inhabit a small pond.

On being 86'd, that I believe.

As opposed to holocaust deniers that are simply attempting in their small way to clear the good name of Adolph Hitler?

He's not really even doing much of a job of clearing Hitler's name. Even if his premise were true, he has replaced the premeditated murder of ~6,000,000 Jews with the murder through reckless indifference of 275,000. And by his story, it was still murder, even if those deaths were not planned or intended. There was no justifiable reason for rounding those people up and putting in those camps, and having done so, nor for allowing the conditions to get so bad that all those people died. It's still murder, but perhaps it's 2nd degree murder rather than 1st (but if I were prosecuting the case, I'd charge 1st degree).

 

[CORed]

How can you say the Holocaust didn't happen? Try explaining this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLAZQyXSx9w

The holocaust was probably the best documented crime in history, and most of the documentation was done by the perpetrators.

 

[Degeneve]

Captain Swoop,
I don't know what the plan you speak of is or the reality of it. But the fact is that after WW II, under the "care" of Esienhower, an estimate 1.5 million Greman ex-soldiers died while in the custody of American forces. For Jews in internment camps, war do doubt caused many deaths from disease and starvation. But after the war, American troops weren't lacking for anything. So what was their excuse.

You must make a confusion with the German soldiers who died while in custody of the USSR.

And this figure is still much less than the 3.5 millions of Russian soldiers who died while under the custody of the Wehrmacht. As a matter of fact, 65% of the Soviet PoWs died while Under German custody, 35% of the German PoWs died while under Soviet custody and approximately 1.5% of the German PoW died while under US or British custody.

This 1.5% is clearly not high enough to reach 1.5 millions deaths. You could at least make the effort to get your figures right on that point.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

The holocaust was probably the best documented crime in history, and most of the documentation was done by the perpetrators.

And their descendents, to their credit, have preserved the death camps for posterity. Why would Germans build a fake gas chamber at the dachau death camp? To pretend they gassed six million Jews when they didn't? Is that logical?

 

[Rincewind]

You must make a confusion with the German soldiers who died while in custody of the USSR.

And this figure is still much less than the 3.5 millions of Russian soldiers who died while under the custody of the Wehrmacht. As a matter of fact, 65% of the Soviet PoWs died while Under German custody, 35% of the German PoWs died while under Soviet custody and approximately 1.5% of the German PoW died while under US or British custody.

This 1.5% is clearly not high enough to reach 1.5 millions deaths. You could at least make the effort to get your figures right on that point.

Presumably the 1.5% includes POWs who died of wounds?

Not to suggest negligence on the part of the Western Allies - as I understand it the Western Allies gave equal medical treatment to Germans as to their own troops.

And, in fact the treatment the German POWs received was better that what the Wehrmacht could have given?

Out of interest, what was the death rate of Western allied POWs in Germany?

 

[Degeneve]

Presumably the 1.5% includes POWs who died of wounds?

Not to suggest negligence on the part of the Western Allies - as I understand it the Western Allies gave equal medical treatment to Germans as to their own troops.

And, in fact the treatment the German POWs received was better that what the Wehrmacht could have given?

Out of interest, what was the death rate of Western allied POWs in Germany?

I have in mind a figure around 4% but I cannot find back the source. I however remember that it was for sure higher that the death rate of German PoWs in the hand of the Western Allies.

 

[Andy_Ross]

In fact many Italian and German Prisoners remained in the UK after the war. Our local POW camp is now a museum. It is called Eden Camp. Prisoners there were allowed out to work on local farms and some were 'boarded out' to work. thy were allowed in to local towns to visit the cinema.
Very few tried to escape as they knew they were on an island and it would have been almost impossible to get back across the North Sea. A minority of 'hard line' and fanatical Nazi Prisoners were kept in higher security camps away from the other prisoners.

 

[Rincewind]

In fact many Italian and German Prisoners remained in the UK after the war. Our local POW camp is now a museum. It is called Eden Camp. Prisoners there were allowed out to work on local farms and some were 'boarded out' to work. thy were allowed in to local towns to visit the cinema.
Very few tried to escape as they knew they were on an island and it would have been almost impossible to get back across the North Sea. A minority of 'hard line' and fanatical Nazi Prisoners were kept in higher security camps away from the other prisoners.

To confirm this:

I used to live in a village called Llangynidr in the Brecon Beacons. The local forester was originally Austrian - he lived just round the corner from me.

He had been a forester in Austria before the war, was captured in the desert and spent time in a POW camp in South Wales. Because of his trade, he worked in the local forestry.

Later in the war he was sent to Canada, but after the end of the war decided to return to Wales rather than Austria, married a local girl and started a successful timber business.

Fascinating guy!

 

[Rincewind]

I have in mind a figure around 4% but I cannot find back the source. I however remember that it was for sure higher that the death rate of German PoWs in the hand of the Western Allies.

Given that numbers of Allied POWs were marched around at the end of the war, I'd not be surprised.

But, apparently, the Western allies were the bad guys?