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Split Thread Michael Brown and Katrina

I don't know where you're getting this strawman from. Where did I say that nobody expected Katrina was a huge danger and a big threat? 1 I'm just saying that when Bush said that a breach of the levee system was unexpected, that he was absolutely correct. Additionally, without such a breach, the catastrophe would have been much easier to deal with. The weather warning you refer to actually emphasizes wind damage. 2If that's all there was, then there would have been tremendous damage and probably dozens of lives lost, but FEMA would have looked competent and responsive. It wouldn't have been as difficult to get aid in or people out. 3But when 80% of the city was underwater (which nobody expected), with no way to get the water out of the city until the levees were plugged up again, rescue and recovery efforts were orders of magnitude more difficult.

1.) This has been proven false and you won't even address the facts and evidence provided.

2.) You provide no quote. You just assert.

3.) This is dishonest. FEMA predicted floods.

Zrd4BL5.jpg


National Geographic said:
Remember, this is a prediction.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.
 
Despite some stuff below your post, I thought you were exactly correct. This distinction between overtopping and breaching was a little piece of nonsense ginned up to hide the fact that Bush was sleeping when people told him bad stuff was going to happen, not well enough informed to appreciate the meaning of what he was being told, not bright enough to understand what he was being told, or lying.

There was a thread about this a very long time ago. I might have even started the thread. I just couldn't believe that anybody would put out this stupid rationalization at the time. Obviously, it wasn't as stupid as I thought because it worked on a few true believer partisans.

:jaw-dropp Did even you read, let alone understand, anything that I have written in this thread? I have demolished the very argument you are advancing at least three times in this very thread, and you have the chutzpah to offer it up again? I'm actually a little embarrassed for you. For the last time, there is a huge difference between overtopping and breaching. If the guy giving the presentation to Bush was worried about breaching, he would have said, "there's a chance of a breach." Instead, he said there was a chance of overtopping. Why do you think when an engineer says "overtop" he really means "breach," and why would you think Bush would know that?

I think it's also significant that a massive amount of water came in through the canals that were built as political pay offs for a very few companies. So US taxpayers paid to enrich a few wealthy individuals and then paid again when the canals that were built exacerbated the damage from Katrina.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you think those canals had no function at all? Do you understand the first thing about how New Orleans' drainage system works? Most of the city is below the level of the river and the lake, and some parts are even below sea level. How do you think they get the water out of the city when it rains?
 
I have demolished the very argument you are advancing at least three times in this very thread...
You have FAILED spectacularly.

  • FEMA did warn of dire consequences of a Cat 5 hurricane.
  • Katrina WAS a Cat 5 hurricane (at that time it was reasonable to heed FEMA's order.
  • NOA warned of a Mortal Threat.
What exactly did FEMA and Bush do to prepare for these warnings?
 
Sunmaster14, are you honestly telling us that the National Weather Service and FEMA had no way to know that they were in danger?

No, I'm not. When did I ever say that?

Do you honestly think that the second biggest threat to America was not possible or unlikely given the facts when Katrina was at Cat 5?

FEMA predicted the disaster
. The National Weather Service predicted disaster (see above).

Your claim that Bush had no way of knowing of the coming disaster is just pure and utter BS (and very dishonest given the mountains of proof I keep providing you).

Your committing that fallacy of the excluded middle, or something like that. It wasn't either or. It was likely to be a big dangerous damaging storm. It was extremely unlikely, a priori, that it would put 80% of the city underwater.

My video proves that Michael Brown warmed Bush. Yet Bush still did nothing.

What was Bush supposed to do that he didn't do? Make a sacrifice to the weather gods?

ETA: By the way, I'm going to sleep. You don't need me to argue with anyway, since you seem to have plenty of strawmen to keep you busy.
 
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No, I'm not. When did I ever say that?
Did Bush respond to the danger? Yes or no?

Your committing that fallacy of the excluded middle, or something like that. It wasn't either or. It was likely to be a big dangerous damaging storm. It was extremely unlikely, a priori, that it would put 80% of the city underwater.
A.) {sigh} No source. Just asserted. Did you pull this out of your ass?

What was Bush supposed to do that he didn't do? Make a sacrifice to the weather gods?
Oh for crying in the dark. I've answered this question. Do what they have done on many other occasions. {jesus ******* christ}

  1. Prepare for mass evacuation.
  2. Preposition resources.
Will I have to explain this to you again?
 
That cited article is, if you read it, surprisingly strange. It appears Brown is criticizing Obama for reassuring people that he would do what he's supposed to, and in fact what Brown says he's supposed to. Apparently Brown believes the public should be kept uninformed until after the hurricane, and then find out whether or not the person in charge is an idiot.

Brown is a pathetic, incompetent toady who exemplifies the classic libertarian-type who won't actually take responsibility when they show their incompetence.

When it was obvious that Brown was worse than useless he first tried to blame the media (the media that had loads more information than he did), then he tried to blame New Orleans. Months later he took some of the blame but then went on to try and toss Bush under the bus (he might have had a point there but Brown was still trying to make himself faultless). When Sandy came along and was an obvious threat to the NE there was a lot better response - Brown was obviously upset that he was the classic example of how not to do it.

He really is an idiot. I can't believe people are trying to polish his legacy.
 
Brown is a pathetic, incompetent toady who exemplifies the classic libertarian-type who won't actually take responsibility when they show their incompetence.

When it was obvious that Brown was worse than useless he first tried to blame the media (the media that had loads more information than he did), then he tried to blame New Orleans. Months later he took some of the blame but then went on to try and toss Bush under the bus (he might have had a point there but Brown was still trying to make himself faultless). When Sandy came along and was an obvious threat to the NE there was a lot better response - Brown was obviously upset that he was the classic example of how not to do it.

He really is an idiot. I can't believe people are trying to polish his legacy.
If Obama had ignored warnings for various terrorist attacks the way Bush ignored warnings for Katrina he would be impeached by now.
 
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Warning by FEMA, National Weather Service, a Category 5 storm that met the conditions of FEMA and what did Bush do?

Go ahead, what exactly did Bush do?
 
I prefer the words of Stevie Wonder, Reverend.
" when you believe in things that you don't understand, and you suffer........superstition ain't the way.. "

  • FEMA warned of dire consequences for a Cat 5 huricaane hitting NO.
  • Katrina was a Cat 5.
  • National weather service warned of "mortal danger".
What did Bush and company do? No, really, what did they do?
 
  • FEMA warned of dire consequences for a Cat 5 huricaane hitting NO.
  • Katrina was a Cat 5.
  • National weather service warned of "mortal danger".
What did Bush and company do? No, really, what did they do?

  • Wait and see.
  • Results: 1,800 dead.
How soon did FEMA respond to the crises?

Warning: NSFRP (not safe for reasonable people)

KATRINA TIMELINE | ThinkProgress

What did Bush do?

Sunday, August 28

BUSH, BROWN, CHERTOFF WARNED OF LEVEE FAILURE BY NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER DIRECTOR: Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center: “‘We were briefing them way before landfall. … It’s not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped.'” [Times-Picayune; St. Petersburg Times]
Bush lied, people died.
 
  • FEMA warned of dire consequences for a Cat 5 huricaane hitting NO.
  • Katrina was a Cat 5.
  • National weather service warned of "mortal danger".
What did Bush and company do? No, really, what did they do?
Oh!, you are asking me, sorry I thought you had posted in the wrong thread- or was just throwing that out for reasons of your own.

I'll bite though.
I don't recall the specifics, but my hazy memory is bringing up something about GW being in Florida and not taking much executive action until after the storm - even then doing little more than a " fly by " initially. He certainly didn't do anything to stop the storm from hitting, though- possibly too busy trying to figure out a way to link it to Sadaam Husein.

Relavence?
 
Because I demolished your claims with sources.

It's a fact that overtopping CAN weaken the integrity of a dam or levee resulting in a breach. True or false?

Levees are subject to failure when overtopped similar to dams.

This falls into the class of links that provide information so friggin obvious you would think it wouldn't be necessary.

hypothetical Bush said:
Yeah that really surprised me, when they said the levees would be over topped I never imagined that might mean the levees would fail.
Because who could imagine water rushing over the top of an earthen structure could damage it? And when have levees ever failed from water undermining them from the side that is flooded? And who would imagine somebody would dig a canal that was guaranteed to channel water into Lake Pontchartrain in the event of a serious weather event?

What kind of defense of Bush is this? That he was incredibly ill informed about the potential for levee failure when they're over topped, that he was just brain dead stupid, that he was sleeping during the bad stuff is going to happen briefing or that he just lied a little? And it's the Bush defenders rejecting the lied a little option.
 
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Because who could imagine water rushing over the top of an earthen structure could damage it?
It's like arguing with a flat earth advocate.

History Channel said:
Yet the government–particularly the federal government–seemed unprepared for the disaster. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) took days to establish operations in New Orleans, and even then did not seem to have a sound plan of action.

Warnings by FEMA included "dire". Warnings from the National Weather Service was "Mortal Danger".

What prepeeration did FEMA do prior to the storm? Was it impossible to deduce from all of the warnings along with the fact that Katrina was a Cat 5 storm that disaster loomed large?

FEMA: A Cat 5 storm with devastate the city.
NOA: Katrina is a Cat 5 storm.
NWS: Katrina is mortal danger

Question: At the moment these facts became known, should preparation have been underway?
 
wiki provided for information purposes. Links are provided in the pull quote and foot noted.

Originally Posted by wiki
It has been stated in the evacuation order that, beginning at noon on August 28 and running for several hours, all city buses were redeployed to shuttle local residents to, "refuges of last resort," designated in advance, including the Louisiana Superdome.[6] They also said that the state had prepositioned enough food and water to supply 15,000 citizens with supplies for three days, the anticipated waiting period before FEMA would arrive in force and provide supplies for those still in the city.[6] Later, it was found that FEMA had provided these supplies, but that FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was greatly surprised by the much larger numbers of people who turned up seeking refuge and that the first wave of supplies were quickly depleted.[6] The large numbers were a direct result of the insufficient mobilization and evacuation before Katrina's arrival, primarily due to city and state resistance to issuing an evacuation order and risk "crying wolf" and losing face should the hurricane had left the path of model prediction. Had contra-flow on highways been initiated sooner and more buses begun evacuating families (including the idle school buses that were not used at all) the numbers of stranded New Orleans occupants would have been significantly less making the initial wave of FEMA supplies adequate and even excessive.
Are you kidding me? Seriously? It was at the top of the bloody list. How on Earth could Brown miscalculate so badly? Oh wait, while it was his job description he wasn't chosen for his abilities.

So Brownie was surprised at the large number of people the CITY and STATE left behind? I was too. Don't want the CITY and STATE to feel ashamed for not doing their bloody job.
 
Please, by all means, if you have evidence that FEMA did anything virtuous, lovely or of good report (to quote St. Paul), let me know.

Quote:
Federal government response

President Bush signed a $10.5 billion relief package within four days of the hurricane,[7] and ordered 7,200 active-duty troops to assist with relief efforts.[8] However, some members of the United States Congress charged that the relief efforts were slow because most of the affected areas were poor.[9] There was also concern that many National Guard units were short staffed in surrounding states because some units were deployed overseas and local recruiting efforts in schools and the community had been hampered making reserves less than ideal.[10]

Due to the slow response to the hurricane, New Orleans's top emergency management official called the effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly desperate city.[11] New Orleans's emergency operations chief Terry Ebbert blamed the inadequate response on the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). "This is not a FEMA operation. I haven't seen a single FEMA guy", he said. "FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."[11]

In the early morning of September 2 mayor Ray Nagin expressed his frustration at what he claimed were insufficient reinforcements provided by the President and federal authorities.[12][13]

However, many police, fire and EMS organizations from outside the affected areas were reportedly hindered or otherwise slowed in their efforts to send help and assistance to the area. FEMA sent hundreds of firefighters who had volunteered to help rescue victims to Atlanta for 2 days of training classes on topics including sexual harassment and the history of FEMA.[14]

Official requests for help through the proper chains of command were not forthcoming due to local and state delays in engaging FEMA for federal assistance, even after approached by such authorities. Local police and other EMS workers found the situation traumatic; at least two officers committed suicide, and over 300 deserted the city after gang violence and "turf wars" erupted around the city.[15]

A report by the Appleseed Foundation, a public policy network, found that local entities (nonprofit and local government agencies) were far more flexible and responsive than the federal government or national organizations. The federal response was often constrained by lack of legal authority or by ill-suited eligibility and application requirements. In many instances, federal staff and national organizations did not seem to have the flexibility, training, and resources to meet demands on the ground."[16]

Yup. Bush and Brownie are the criminals here...
 
Yup. Bush and Brownie are the criminals here...
FEMA does not have to wait to prepare for emergencies.

It's clear that FEMA did nothing to prepare. People died waiting for help because FEMA did nothing to prepare for a disaster it knew was likely.

Bush and Brownie are the criminals here...
Objectively one of the worst presidents in History and likely committed far more crimes than most presidents.
 
So Brownie was surprised at the large number of people the CITY and STATE left behind? I was too. Don't want the CITY and STATE to feel ashamed for not doing their bloody job.
Because Brown was incapable of doing his job.

His agency had placed an event like Katrina at the top of the list for disaster preparedness. How incompetent was Brown? He was honestly surprised that his pathetic efforts were so overwhelmed by the serious consequences. Consequences THAT WERE PREDICTED. Yet he, Brown, was surprised.

That's how incompetent the guy was.

Let's look at that prediction again.

National Geographtic said:


Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

The dire consequences of Katrina were predicted yet Brown was ignorant of the seriousness nature of the problem and acted in an incomprehensibly incompetent fashion.
 
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