Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The critical part is he had phone access which you had said he didn't. It doesn't matter whether he bought it or it was fronted to him to fence. Btw, he had phone access besides the one phone in Milan.

No one ever believed he bought in Milan. He brought it from Perugia where he was involved with stealing it or he was assigned the job of selling it in Milan.

Oh and the CT story?

Come on Grinder. He never bought it at all! This is Rudy's testimony.

You can say the real burglar "fronted him the laptop and phone if you want but you're just filling in the holes to support your own theory. A theory that there isn't a shred of testimony or evidence to support. Are you making it up as you suggest Nina did in her book?
 
You like early reporting, right? You as I believe there is value in those early days, right?

Please explain how the "pen knife" they were calling the murder weapon morphed into a larger kitchen knife?

By Malcolm Moore in Perugia and Gary Cleland 12:01AM GMT 05 Nov 2007

Luca Lalli, a pathologist who carried out a post-mortem examination, said Miss Kercher was killed with a penknife.


Lalli was fired.
 
You guys crack me up. There is very little that is similar between Amanda Knox and the female killers you mention. Also the relationships with their supposed accomplices are of course dramatically different in the sense thos killers had known each them for years. In contrast Knox had known Raffaele for a week and while she met Rudy 2 weeks before, there is nothing that indicates that they even shared a ten minute conversation with each other.

Also, have you ever read the background information on Aileen Wuornos and Joanna Dennehy? Do you really think they compare to Amanda Knox?

Amanda's behaviour shows parallels with Dennehy. Reckless behaviour. Triumphant attitude towards the victim. Contempt of the police.

I have Monster (Wournos) as an audiobook, which, like my other 30 audiobooks, I've never had time to listen to.
 
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DNA evidence showed Mez DNA on the blade of the murder weapon and Amanda's on the hilt. Witness Kokomani, in addition, reported being threatened by a drug-crazed Amanda on the murder night, brandishing a large knife.

...

The pro innocent people around here make several claims with regard to Kercher's DNA on the knife.
1. The concentration of DNA on the knife was apparently too low for a reliable test.
2. Patrizia Stefanoni failed to provide relevant underlying information about the testing done on the knife including things like the results of testing done for control purposes and the results of testing that would have identified the DNA concentration reliably.
3. Blood was not identified on the knife so the source of the DNA could not be identified. There is a large distinction between the evidential value of a finding of DNA associated with an identifiable biological source and DNA where the biological source can be identified. If Kercher's blood had been found on the knife the very likely explanation would be that the knife was used in the murder of Kercher. However when a biological source is not identified innocent explanations for the finding of DNA become much more likely, including contamination and incidental touch transfer.
4. If the knife was to be used as evidence the most likely place that blood or other evidence could be found would be the crack between the hilt and the blade. The blade was not removed so this area could be tested. This suggests to the pro-innocent people that Stefanoni was not thoroughly investigating the knife evidence. She was just going with anything that she could find that had the ring of incriminating evidence. It was also curious that the prosecution would resist the disassembly of the knife for the purposes of collection of evidence if they were truly involved in a search for truth about this case.
5. When the knife was retested no evidence of human blood or Kercher's DNA was found on the knife, most especially in the area where Stefanoni claimed to have found it.
6. The collection of the knife was done under very suspicious circumstances where the police had just been shown to have made a horrible error when they misidentified a foot print in blood as consistent with shoes that Sollecito owns when in fact the foot print was incompatible with Sollecito's shoes and was compatible with shoes that Guede owned. So they go on a sort of scavenger hunt to find incriminating evidence of AK and RS and incredibly find what they were looking for after completely missing any real evidence of AK and RS on their first crime scene investigation. And both pieces of evidence that they find do not stand up to additional scrutiny. The bra clasp because it was destroyed by the storage technique.
7. The knife that Kercher's DNA was allegedly found on is both incompatible with a knife stain in blood on the sheets on Kercher's bed and the nature of the wound reported by the first pathologist involved with the case.

All of these points have been made in this thread since you have been participating in this thread. So what was the purpose of a post indicating that you still believe the DNA found on the knife collected in Sollecito's apartment is evidence of guilt? Do you dispute any of the arguments made in this thread that the DNA findings are not valid evidence? For instance, do you believe that the concentration of DNA found on the knife was sufficient for a reliable DNA test? You claim to be objectively analyzing the evidence in this case. So what are the results of this objective analysis with regard to the DNA evidence on the knife beyond the repetition of a claim that you think the evidence is valid?
 
Do you think she wrote the statement in Italian herself?

When the police chief, De Felice, said they questioned her until she buckled and "told us what we knew to be correct", what do you think that meant. Since she told them a falsehood but it was what they knew to be correct how did she know what they believed to be correct?

I can only think of one way and that's they got her to agree with their POV for a few hours before she started writing the notes expressing doubt in what she had signed.

They knew Patrick had texted her. However, Amanda had deleted it and reacted with consternation when the police showed her a copy of her reply, "See you later".

That is what is likely meant by correct, i.e., the reference to the deleted texts.
 
The pro innocent people around here make several claims with regard to Kercher's DNA on the knife.
1. The concentration of DNA on the knife was apparently too low for a reliable test.
2. Patrizia Stefanoni failed to provide relevant underlying information about the testing done on the knife including things like the results of testing done for control purposes and the results of testing that would have identified the DNA concentration reliably.
3. Blood was not identified on the knife so the source of the DNA could not be identified. There is a large distinction between the evidential value of a finding of DNA associated with an identifiable biological source and DNA where the biological source can be identified. If Kercher's blood had been found on the knife the very likely explanation would be that the knife was used in the murder of Kercher. However when a biological source is not identified innocent explanations for the finding of DNA become much more likely, including contamination and incidental touch transfer.
4. If the knife was to be used as evidence the most likely place that blood or other evidence could be found would be the crack between the hilt and the blade. The blade was not removed so this area could be tested. This suggests to the pro-innocent people that Stefanoni was not thoroughly investigating the knife evidence. She was just going with anything that she could find that had the ring of incriminating evidence. It was also curious that the prosecution would resist the disassembly of the knife for the purposes of collection of evidence if they were truly involved in a search for truth about this case.
5. When the knife was retested no evidence of human blood or Kercher's DNA was found on the knife, most especially in the area where Stefanoni claimed to have found it.
6. The collection of the knife was done under very suspicious circumstances where the police had just been shown to have made a horrible error when they misidentified a foot print in blood as consistent with shoes that Sollecito owns when in fact the foot print was incompatible with Sollecito's shoes and was compatible with shoes that Guede owned. So they go on a sort of scavenger hunt to find incriminating evidence of AK and RS and incredibly find what they were looking for after completely missing any real evidence of AK and RS on their first crime scene investigation. And both pieces of evidence that they find do not stand up to additional scrutiny. The bra clasp because it was destroyed by the storage technique.
7. The knife that Kercher's DNA was allegedly found on is both incompatible with a knife stain in blood on the sheets on Kercher's bed and the nature of the wound reported by the first pathologist involved with the case.

All of these points have been made in this thread since you have been participating in this thread. So what was the purpose of a post indicating that you still believe the DNA found on the knife collected in Sollecito's apartment is evidence of guilt? Do you dispute any of the arguments made in this thread that the DNA findings are not valid evidence? For instance, do you believe that the concentration of DNA found on the knife was sufficient for a reliable DNA test? You claim to be objectively analyzing the evidence in this case. So what are the results of this objective analysis with regard to the DNA evidence on the knife beyond the repetition of a claim that you think the evidence is valid?

You have put forward the defense case, which, as sure as Monday follows Sunday, is designed to undermine the prosecution case.
 
Amanda's behaviour shows parallels with Dehanney. Reckless behaviour. Triumphant attitude towards the victim. Contempt of the police.

I have Monster (Wournos) as an audiobook, which, like my other 30 audiobooks, I've never had time to listen to.

Total absolute Nonsense. Specifically what behavior? In fact you would have to make this so called behavior up. But of course, that is what you do.
 
The issue is not and never has been the "voluntary" nature of Amanda's words at interrogation. The issue is and always has been their spontaneity.

Look at how the second memoriale is worded: it simply could not have been composed by Amanda Knox - it is in sophisticated, Italian legalese, leading with the phrase, "I spontaneously declare...." There was someone there coaching Amanda on how to write a proper Italian document in the needed Italian legalese.

It is important to understand what was at issue, legally, before commenting.

"I spontaneously declare..." is probably one of the stock statements that appear on all police statements, such, "true to the best of my knowledge". It's read back to the witness before they sign it.

They twisted Amanda's arm behind her back, will be your next claim, no doubt.
 
Via a translator. In England, as I suspect in all countries, official (legal) documents have to be in the official language. In Elizabethan England, we had the Star Chambers, with everything, including names, translated into Latin. It's doubtful the common people understood a word, though.

What a backwards place. We have official documents in all sorts of languages.

I don't consider a statement an official document and it should either be in English or she should have a non-police translator. Of course, she should have had an attorney before signing.

Don't wriggle out of the fact Amanda voluntarily and of her own volition, made a claim Patrick did it and she was there witnessing Mez' screams.

The police are not clairvoyant. When they interviewed *all* of the house mates and Mez' friends, they're not to know Amanda was going to blurt out a false accusation.

Of course they are going to record it. In fact, Amanda followed it up with a "gift" statement in her own hand saying she stood by "seeing Patrick in blurry flashing images."

We all have to take responsibility for our own actions.

The police and Mignini have to take responsibility for not providing the already suspected Amanda with a lawyer and an independent interpreter.

Nothing Amanda said can be considered to have been voluntary because of it.

They wrote up statements for her to sign - a few paragraphs from nearly eight hours worth of interrogation. What we don't have are the audio or video recordings of what actually happened. Funny that.

She didn't get a lawyer for two days and met counsel for the first time minutes before her appearance before a judge.

These are gross violations of Amanda's procedural rights both in Italian and convention law. These violations were later compounded by the use of her statements against her. You do understand this don't you?
 
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The police and Mignini have to take responsibility for not providing the already suspected Amanda with a lawyer and an independent interpreter.

Nothing Amanda said can be considered to have been voluntary because of it.

They wrote up statements for her to sign - a few paragraphs from nearly eight hours worth of interrogation. What we don't have are the audio or video recordings of what actually happened. Funny that.

She didn't get a lawyer for two days and met counsel for the first time minutes before her appearance before a judge.

These are gross violations of Amanda's procedural rights both in Italian and convention law. These violations were later compounded by the use of her statements against her. You do understand this don't you?

By their own account, Raf and Amanda arrived at the Questura 10:30-ish.

The interpreter, Donnino arrived 12:30-ish. Amanda made her claims and signed them off circa 1:45.

That is not eight hours.
 
By their own account, Raf and Amanda arrived at the Questura 10:30-ish.

The interpreter, Donnino arrived 12:30-ish. Amanda made her claims and signed them off circa 1:45.

That is not eight hours.

Are you serious? What time did she sign her 5:45? Duh!

Where was the lawyer? When are you going to deal with this question?
 
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You have put forward the defense case, which, as sure as Monday follows Sunday, is designed to undermine the prosecution case.

So what is the prosecution case for the knife evidence? Peter Gill thinks it's crap. And who is Peter Gill?

"Dr. Peter Gill is a world renowned DNA expert. Dr. Gill is a coauthor of the 1985 paper in Nature that introduced forensic DNA testing."

So who do I trust on this issue? Somebody on the internet that fails to make even one argument for the reliability of the DNA on the knife evidence beyond their own credulity or Peter Gill? What do you think the answer is?

Here's an article about Peter Gill
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/...adds-voice-to-amanda-knox-case/article/397213

Perhaps you could point us in the direction of an article written about another famous forensic DNA expert that supports Stefanoni's findings?

Perhaps you could put forth a single reason that you believe the arguments put forth in this thread that the DNA evidence on the knife is unreliable and not actual evidence for the guilt of Knox beyond your own credulity?

One thing that I failed to include in the list above of arguments that have been put forth in this thread against the notion that the knife was involved in the crime was just how friggin crazy the theory is that the knife was used in the crime. Knox is supposed to have left Sollecito's apartment with a cooking knife, used it to stab somebody without leaving a trace of evidence in Kercher's room that she did that and then transported the same knife back to Sollecito's apartment where despite the incredible cunning she displayed by committing the murder in Kercher's bedroom while not leaving any evidence there, she is incapable of cleaning the knife so that Kercher's DNA can't be found on it?






 
Amanda didn't wait for a lawyer, as she was eager to pin it on Patrick.

What lawyer?

No that doesn't work anyway, if you're suggesting she was offered but declined counsel. There are very clear rules in play in order for there to be a valid waiver of her right to a lawyer. Not in this case.
 
Amanda didn't wait for a lawyer, as she was eager to pin it on Patrick.

When somebody is being interrogated, somewhere along the line they will probably break. Some people will break after ten hours but some people will break after just a few hours. Amanda was interrogated for many hours over several days.

In any case, the target of the interrogation will look for a way to get out of the interrogation. That might be to confess themselves and/or blame somebody else. The Italian police were pushing Patrick in her face so she broke in the direction they wanted her to.
 
You have put forward the defense case, which, as sure as Monday follows Sunday, is designed to undermine the prosecution case.

Here's your chance to refute it. If you feel so strong about their guilt you should be able to dismantle this argument with ease.
 
I have Monster (Wournos) as an audiobook, which, like my other 30 audiobooks, I've never had time to listen to.

What a shame. Perhaps you should make time to listen to those 30 audiobooks - possibly one way to do so would be to eliminate anything you currently do that is a complete waste of time, being particularly pointless or ineffective.

Can you think of anything?
 
Amanda didn't wait for a lawyer, as she was eager to pin it on Patrick.

It's the responsibility of the police and prosecutor to get a lawyer for the person being questioned where that person does not have a lawyer and is either a suspect at the beginning or becomes one during questioning.

See: CPP Articles 63 and 64, 96 and 97, 350, 364, 386.

ETA: ECHR case-law includes Salduz v Turkey and Dayanan v Turkey for the requirement to provide a lawyer from the first questioning and from the first moment a person is in custody. Requirement for a fair interpreter (not a police collaborator) during questioning is Baytar v Turkey.
 
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Here's your chance to refute it. If you feel so strong about their guilt you should be able to dismantle this argument with ease.

For the life of me I thought Vixen was babe in the woods, on the fence neutral in this matter. At least, that's what s/he assured us umpteen posts ago.
 
The police and Mignini have to take responsibility for not providing the already suspected Amanda with a lawyer and an independent interpreter.

Nothing Amanda said can be considered to have been voluntary because of it.
They wrote up statements for her to sign - a few paragraphs from nearly eight hours worth of interrogation. What we don't have are the audio or video recordings of what actually happened. Funny that.

She didn't get a lawyer for two days and met counsel for the first time minutes before her appearance before a judge.

These are gross violations of Amanda's procedural rights both in Italian and convention law. These violations were later compounded by the use of her statements against her. You do understand this don't you?

I'm being a pest, I know, but the legal issue in play that night was not the "voluntary" nature of any admissions, it was the "spontaneous" nature of them.

No less than Giuliano Mignini covers this at length in his 2010 interview with CNN's Drew Griffin. Mignini defended his admitted encouragement for Knox to, his words, keep making spontaneous statements and all he would do would be to record them as if only a notary.

That legal chicanery did not make it past even the Italian Supreme Court, which until March 2015 was favourable to Mignini's wrongful prosecution. The issue of the non-spontaneous statements (made, further, without mandatory legal representation) is something everyone should agree on; regardless of which side they've been on in the past.

I'm being a pest on this, but the difference between voluntary and spontaneous is what's at issue here.
 
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