Iraq War a Mistake

[Toontown]

I have not followed all the-back-and-forth between this poster and others, but this statement is reasonable. The whole Saddam might have nasty weapons that he might use was never enough for me for to see the wisdom of squandering resources on a poorly executed invasion. At the time I hoped the government had some really smoking-gun intelligence, but it didn't.

The invasion was anything but poorly executed. Colonel Perkins and his spearhead reached Saddam's palace in Bagdad in record time. No army has ever penetrated any resisting enemy's defenses so deeply, so quickly. It was the fastest advance in the history of war.

And none of the Baath psychopath "cards" survived it.

Taking out the Baath regime in Iraq was not a "mistake". If it is a "mistake", here on the monkeyball, to eliminate such a rat nest of murderous psychopaths, then all I have to say is screw this monkeyball.

However, the subsequent "occupation" was a failure. Not a mistake. A failure.

If there is a next time, I hope the somewhat meager forces of civilization do better in the occupation phase. And I hope they have more help if there is a next time. If not, then screw this monkeyball.

 

[grunion]

On August 26, 2002, in an address to the national convention of the Veteran of Foreign Wars, Cheney flatly declared: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us." In fact, former CIA Director George Tenet later recalled, Cheney's assertions went well beyond his agency's assessments at the time. Another CIA official, referring to the same speech, told journalist Ron Suskind, "Our reaction was, 'Where is he getting this stuff from?' "

The Center For Public Integrity was started in 1989 by journalist Charles Rice in the attempt to provide a critical, investigative analysis of those Washington stories that he felt the major media outlets did not commit the appropriate resources to discern truthful statements from fiction.

In his book "935 Lies" he detailed each of the statements on the public record that the Bush administration stated to justify the colossal blunder that became the US invasion of Iraq. 935 of them were verifiably false, with hundreds more Indirect statements built on the false premises of the lies.

The CPI created a searchable database of these statements made by eight top administration officials (Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Press Secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan) from September 11 2001 to September 11 2003 primarily claiming links to Al Qaida and possession of WMDs. You can search them here.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

the subsequent "occupation" was a failure. Not a mistake. A failure.

Wrong. The occupation was failure because it was a mistake.

Definition of MISTAKE
1:
to blunder in the choice of
2
a : to misunderstand the meaning or intention of : misinterpret

b : to make a wrong judgment of the character or ability of
3
: to identify wrongly : confuse with another
​

It was a mistake to blunder into that mess thinking we could turn Iraq into a libertarian paradise.

It was a mistake to misinterpret the Iraqis' hatred of Saddam as a yearning for secular democracy.

It was a mistake to underestimate our ability to quell sectarian violence and prevent the rise of terrorism in Iraq.

It was a mistake to wrongly identify innocent weather balloon trucks as mobile WMD laboratories.

But perhaps you are right. When informed experts tell that you that what you want to do is a big mistake, but you do it anyway and the result is predictable failure, then your decision wasn't a mistake - it was either stupidity or insanity.

such a rat nest of murderous psychopaths

Yes, a rats nest of murderous psychopaths made the insane decision to attack and occupy Iraq!

 

[Nihilianth]

I changed my tune sometime around Katrina IIRC.

The Iraq War was a mistake. A big one.

That was around the time I did as well. I became absolutely disillusioned with Bush and the Republican Party around that time. It was in 2008, where I officially became downright DISGUSTED with the Republicans.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for rule 10 breach

 

[Nihilianth]

By what earthly right has the USA to decide that a dictator deserves taking down? Do you have any idea how that sounds to people in other countries?

The war was an unmitigated disaster and to anyone with the wit to follow the events leading up to it rather than respond as gung-ho patriots it looked very much like the USA lashing out like a frustrated child having a temper tantrum and being quite willing to conflate 9/11, Bin Laden and any nasty characters, such as Saddam who got into their sights. The turmoil in that part of the world is a direct result of that mess and the aftermath of the invasion.

..and Bush in his leather jacket on board that ship announcing victory. How damned embarrassing.

How damned embarrassing, indeed! Especially now in hindsight. At the time, I was just a dumb kid, just freshly graduated from high school for about a year. Even at that time, when Bush and the Republican Party was still in my good graces, it seemed....off to me.

 

[Caper]

Worst thing is now Iraq is a absolute mess. It needs the world community now more then ever. And because of the last decade, I don't think the world will step up.

 

[Toontown]

By what earthly right has the USA to decide that a dictator deserves taking down? Do you have any idea how that sounds to people in other countries?

And who does have the right to decide? The UN, which issued a standing authorization for all member countries to use force on Iraq, which was recalled in a subsequent resolution and never recinded?

And these "other countries" you're talking about. Are these the same countries that gave us World Wars I and II and 70 million dead? Just for the obvious starting place...

The countries that were pretty happy that the US was out to take down the dictator that was working their asses over in the early forties? Was it because it was their specific asses that were being worked over at the time, instead of countries like Iran and Kuwait? Was it because they were the ones being gassed, instead of Iranians and Kurds?

Those countries?

But wait. Weren't those the countries that approved the standing UN authorization to use "all necessary means" against the Little Hitler in Iraq?

By what "right" did those countries approve that?

 

[Toontown]

It was a mistake to blunder into that mess thinking we could turn Iraq into a libertarian paradise.

It was a mistake to misinterpret the Iraqis' hatred of Saddam as a yearning for secular democracy.

It was a mistake to underestimate our ability to quell sectarian violence and prevent the rise of terrorism in Iraq.

It was a mistake to wrongly identify innocent weather balloon trucks as mobile WMD laboratories.

Hyperbole aside, those were failures. Not mistakes. Nothing new either. Psychopathic tyrants have been causing humanity to fail for a long, long time. The only thing somewhat unusual in this case was that this particular one ended up at the end of a rope.

By your reasoning, it would be a "mistake" to accept an invitation to the Olympics if you subsequently and quite predictably fail to medal.

 

[Toontown]

If you people in all those "other countries" keep letting these psychopaths like Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, etc, etc, etc run rampant, take your asses over and jack your asses up repeatedly, I'm going to lose all respect for you.

Putin already has lost respect. He's a cautious psychopath, but he's taken to invading and annexing territory lately. He must have noticed your decade of fixation on bashing Bush/Cheney for taking out Saddam & Sons.

Hitler had a similar epiphany after Munich which he shared with his cronies in Berlin: "They are little worms. I saw them at Munich."

 

[The Big Dog]

That was around the time I did as well. I became absolutely disillusioned with Bush and the Republican Party around that time. It was in 2008, where I officially became downright DISGUSTED with the Republicans.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove moderated content

man, the quality of discussion on this board keeps hitting new lows....

 

[Toontown]

man, the quality of discussion on this board keeps hitting new lows....

Just a reminder that this is the "USA Politics" subforum, loaded with politikers bent on influencing and controlling the voting behavior of as many Americans as possible.

 

[Toontown]

..and Bush in his leather jacket on board that ship announcing victory. How damned embarrassing.

Note to self: avoid announcing victory while wearing a leather jacket. Apparently it embarrasses the clothes nazis.

I recall a thread which was devoted to admirers posting pics of the bare-chested Putin. Comments were mostly positive. That big chest of his just melts their faces.

There has been some mild criticism of his recent invasions and annexations. Probably time for another show of chest.

 

[anglolawyer]

The Iraq war was a mistake and a war crime. There was no dodgy intelligence, just lies fed to gullible people who still lap them up because they are so devoted to the idea their country is basically good. If the US were 'good' it would put the war criminals on trial or, better, hand them over to the ICC. It would also pay reparations to the Iraqi people and carry out its broken promise to stick around until the job is done. Which means going back, defeating ISIS and working to create a stable security system in the region. But nothing of the kind will happen because there are too many folks still swallowing the lies and revisionism.

I believe the point of the invasion was to create permanent instability in the region. It worked perfectly and has been a great success.

 

[twinstead]

Which means going back, defeating ISIS and working to create a stable security system in the region.

So your solution is for us to go back and do the same thing you are complaining about in the first place?

 

[anglolawyer]

So your solution is for us to go back and do the same thing you are complaining about in the first place?

No. I was not offering a solution. I was making a moral statement. But if the U.S. (plus allies, including its favourite poodle) went back with the real intention of bringing order and security to the region it would not be doing what I am 'complaining about' (strange expression - I was merely describing what happened).

However, this is pure fantasy. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

 

[sunmaster14]

No. I was not offering a solution. I was making a moral statement. But if the U.S. (plus allies, including its favourite poodle) went back with the real intention of bringing order and security to the region it would not be doing what I am 'complaining about' (strange expression - I was merely describing what happened).

However, this is pure fantasy. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

You don't think the surge in 2007 was intended to bring order and security to the region, and in fact succeeded? Obama has actually been implementing your preferred policies for the most part, which is why the region is in greater turmoil than ever. Disengagement by the US just doesn't work. Like it or not (and evidently you don't) you have lived your entire life during a Pax Americana. Without the Americana, the Pax falls apart.

 

[Toontown]

I believe the point of the invasion was to create permanent instability in the region. It worked perfectly and has been a great success.

A lot of conspiracy theorists believe that. It's piss ignorant.

The belief is all but ruled out by Occam's Razor. There is a far simpler and more parsimonious explanation:

To wit: the point of the invasion was to get a fourth of the planet's primary energy reserve out of the hands of a group of murderous, impulsive, unpredictable, expansionist psychopaths.

Because only an idiotic, uncivilized Bozoball would tolerate such a state of affairs if there was anything that could be done about it.

but wait...

Uh, yeah...it is an idiotic, uncivilized Bozoball, isn't it. Which explains most of history, and also explains why a fourth of the Bozoball's primary energy reserve was left in the psychopaths' control for so long, even after they earned Chapter 7 status. And explains why so many bozos wanted to leave it that way a lot longer. And why they're still carping about it every day on the internet.

 

[anglolawyer]

You don't think the surge in 2007 was intended to bring order and security to the region, and in fact succeeded? Obama has actually been implementing your preferred policies for the most part, which is why the region is in greater turmoil than ever. Disengagement by the US just doesn't work. Like it or not (and evidently you don't) you have lived your entire life during a Pax Americana. Without the Americana, the Pax falls apart.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! And they say Americans lack a sense of humour. Good one.

Please save the tired old crap about how we owe everything to America. First, you are telling the wrong person and second, it's irrelevant. And third, when you fall back on 'like it or not' arguments of this kind, you abandon any claim to moral superiority. Let's just have that in writing, shall we? We must all go along with The Great Satan because it's big and powerful. Fine. Suits me.

A lot of conspiracy theorists believe that. It's piss ignorant.

The belief is all but ruled out by Occam's Razor. There is a far simpler and more parsimonious explanation:

To wit: the point of the invasion was to get a fourth of the planet's primary energy reserve out of the hands of a group of murderous, impulsive, unpredictable, expansionist psychopaths.
Because only an idiotic, uncivilized Bozoball would tolerate such a state of affairs if there was anything that could be done about it.

but wait...

Uh, yeah...it is an idiotic, uncivilized Bozoball, isn't it. Which explains most of history, and also explains why a fourth of the Bozoball's primary energy reserve was left in the psychopaths' control for so long, even after they earned Chapter 7 status. And explains why so many bozos wanted to leave it that way a lot longer. And why they're still carping about it every day on the internet.

HAHAHAHAHAH again. So you admit the war was based on lies. Good to get that out of the way.

 

[Whiplash]

I don't think it was a mistake, nor do many people I know.. I guess some on the left are desperate to get validation for their stance against it. They seem to forget the ridiculous arguments they put forth about how it was going to be a disastrous quagmire with upwards of 50-100k dead American soldiers.. the new Vietnam. And then we steam rolled them.

Ya there have been some problems since then. But a lot of that was because of trying to appease the afformentioned lefties and their mentality. Not seeing it through properly. Not finishing the job. Being too afraid of the backlash created by rabid liberals who are too partisan to ever be objective.

Only made worse since Obama took over, abandoned it, and it went to hell. Somehow that is all still Bush's fault. LOL. Liberals live in denial. I don't know how they function. You guys should be the ones revisiting YOUR opinion, not the other way around. I'm certain long term history will shine positively on Bush and the Iraq war.

OH snap, what am I doing, voicing common sense in this left wing echo chamber. I forgot. Just ignore me. I'll see myself out.

 

[anglolawyer]

I don't think it was a mistake, nor do many people I know.. I guess some on the left are desperate to get validation for their stance against it. They seem to forget the ridiculous arguments they put forth about how it was going to be a disastrous quagmire with upwards of 50-100k dead American soldiers.. the new Vietnam. And then we steam rolled them.

Ya there have been some problems since then. But a lot of that was because of trying to appease the afformentioned lefties and their mentality. Not seeing it through properly. Not finishing the job. Being too afraid of the backlash created by rabid liberals who are too partisan to ever be objective.

Only made worse since Obama took over, abandoned it, and it went to hell. Somehow that is all still Bush's fault. LOL. Liberals live in denial. I don't know how they function. You guys should be the ones revisiting YOUR opinion, not the other way around. I'm certain long term history will shine positively on Bush and the Iraq war.

OH snap, what am I doing, voicing common sense in this left wing echo chamber. I forgot. Just ignore me. I'll see myself out.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

History has already reached its verdict on this fiasco. I don't remember anybody saying it would be like Vietnam. It certainly wouldn't have got off the drawing board if the planners had expected a bloodbath involving vast numbers of American casualties. It was obvious, even to an armchair general like me, that the easy part would be driving through the static, outgunned, hopelessly overmatched Iraqi army and getting to Baghdad for next to no loss. You're not judging the war a success by that yardstick are you? Because if you are, you need go bone up on the claimed war aims: locating Iraq's WMD, taking the war on terror to the enemy, decapitating the Iraqi regime. Score: 1 out of 3 and it turns out the 1 was worse than the resulting alternative.

Good enough for your average right wing yank but not for anyone with half a brain.