Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Not really Vixen. You are mistakenly viewing Dr Gill as an advocate in this case. He's not. He's a scientist and the father of using DNA to solve crimes. He's saying that a semen stain in a sex crime should be tested. He doesn't care that a defendant doesn't want a test done.

Dr. Gill would probably be saying that they were guilty if the semen stain was Raffaele's.

Dr Gill is an advocate for the defense. He provided the appendices to Raf's appeal via Avv Bongiornio.

Dr Gill's claim DNA is only relevant if someone who shouldn't be there are found to have been there. His sophists argument is that as Amanda lived there, that's all right then, and Raf was the boyfriend.

Raf's claim the forensic police planted his DNA to frame him is preposterous.

 

[Desert Fox]

Dr Gill is an advocate for the defense. He provided the appendices to Raf's appeal via Avv Bongiornio.

Dr Gill's claim DNA is only relevant if someone who shouldn't be there are found to have been there. His sophists argument is that as Amanda lived there, that's all right then, and Raf was the boyfriend.

Raf's claim the forensic police planted his DNA to frame him is preposterous.

Let us discard the planting hypothesis and let us start with the basics. . . .
Are there any cases where a person is considered a murder suspect due to DNA evidence and it is later found to be contamination? Edit: Second hand contamination actually?

 

[Vixen]

From Boulder to ISF

You really need to get your usages and definitions straight, since they are consistently off-base, and, as in this case, all too frequently preposterous. The rock that Guede tossed through Filomena's window weighed approximately 9 pounds. According to your apparently estranged friend Google, the standard weight of a sandstone boulder is from 150 to 175 pounds. Granite and limestone boulders, of the kind typically seen to drop on Wile E. Coyote in the Road Runner cartoons, weigh more.

From wiki:
In geology, a boulder is a rock with grain size of usually no less than 30 centimetres (1 ft) diameter.

----

It says nothing about minimum weight.

 

[Strozzi]

He almost certainly panicked having never murdered anybody before and just took the money. Taking a laptop from a household that somebody just got murdered is also a pretty telling thing.

Filomena's bedroom was dark when Rudi climbed in her window. I suspect he passed through in the dark (without seeing anything) and immediately went into the living area to get an idea of the apartment's layout and see where the front door is. He most probably intended to return to Filomena's bedroom to look for valuables, but first hit the refrigerator before rifling through the bedrooms. He assumed he had plenty of time. Big mistake. After the murder, Rudi was in flight mode.

Are there indications that he went back into Filomena's room after the murder?

 

[analemma]

Dr Gill is an advocate for the defense. He provided the appendices to Raf's appeal via Avv Bongiornio.

Dr Gill's claim DNA is only relevant if someone who shouldn't be there are found to have been there. His sophists argument is that as Amanda lived there, that's all right then, and Raf was the boyfriend.

Raf's claim the forensic police planted his DNA to frame him is preposterous.

I believe that forensic police planted his DNA to frame him.
They had just lost their best evidence in the shoe rings and needed something else that could be used against him.
Remember they went back looking for his DNA 43 days later.
It was miracle that they found exactly what they were looking for after the films shows them wiping their dirty gloves on the bra clasp.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Forensic fraud happens

It is unwise to discard the possibility of evidence-planting a priori. Consider Forensic Fraud for a few examples. The bra clasp DNA profile is the item most likely to have been the result of tampering, but there is no way to be certain IMO. Even if it were not, it is still worthless as evidence.

My recollection is that Dr. Gill's book is cited by the defense, which is not the same thing as a claim that Dr. Gill provided the appendix to the defense.

 

[Desert Fox]

It is unwise to discard the possibility of evidence-planting a priori. Consider Forensic Fraud for a few examples. The bra clasp DNA profile is the item most likely to have been the result of tampering, but there is no way to be certain IMO. Even if it were not, it is still worthless as evidence.

My recollection is that Dr. Gill's book is cited by the defense, which is not the same thing as a claim that Dr. Gill provided the appendix to the defense.

I am not arguing that it was not forensic fraud just that even if not, it could easily be contamination. I was hoping that Vixen would actually bite.

 

[anglolawyer]

Boulder is a place in Colorado. One bouldly goes there where no one has gone before. The correct word for the thing Rudy chucked through the window is a stone.

 

[Desert Fox]

Boulder is a place in Colorado. One bouldly goes there where no one has gone before. The correct word for the thing Rudy chucked through the window is a stone.

Also a unit of weight used in the UK where the rest of the universe shakes its head

 

[Bill Williams]

I believe that forensic police planted his DNA to frame him.
They had just lost their best evidence in the shoe rings and needed something else that could be used against him.
Remember they went back looking for his DNA 43 46 days later.
It was miracle that they found exactly what they were looking for after the films shows them wiping their dirty gloves on the bra clasp.

Like this?

 

[carbonjam72]

Boulder is a place in Colorado. One bouldly goes there where no one has gone before. The correct word for the thing Rudy chucked through the window is a stone.

"rock" would also be fine. Or, you could also call it a 'primitive resident home detection device". Or "burglar's warning bell".

Or maybe, an "ice-braker".

 

[carbonjam72]

Stef's MO?

It is unwise to discard the possibility of evidence-planting a priori. Consider Forensic Fraud for a few examples. The bra clasp DNA profile is the item most likely to have been the result of tampering, but there is no way to be certain IMO. Even if it were not, it is still worthless as evidence.

My recollection is that Dr. Gill's book is cited by the defense, which is not the same thing as a claim that Dr. Gill provided the appendix to the defense.

Hey Chris,

IIRC, Dr Gill said there were only about 4-5 cells of Raf's DNA found on the bra clasp? Or was it 4-5 cells for all the profiles found?

Anyway, my question is, how do you plant just 4-5 cells? Doesn't "planting" carry a high degree of risk of prosecution if it goes wrong for the planter?

Where as Stef seems to have perfected the LCN single run lab fraud which she used to find Meredtih's DNA purportedly from the knife.

Isn't Stef's using a consistent method in lab for generating false results between those two samples (bra and knife) by far the most likely scenario here?

 

[Vixen]

I was reacting to the "appeal to authority".... used by the poster to buttress her own analysis of the evidence. The constant reference to, "The court of the 1st instance found....." is misleading.

The Court of the 1st Instance in this case is annulled.

The facts of the First Instance stand. What was being appealed was the interpretation thereof. ISC were looking at the appeal court's reasoning. It does not have the power to annul facts found.

A fact is a fact.

 

[Grinder]

The facts of the First Instance stand. What was being appealed was the interpretation thereof. ISC were looking at the appeal court's reasoning. It does not have the power to annul facts found.

A fact is a fact.

What facts did Curatolo provide?

Since he was last heard by Hellmann, is Hellmann's opinion the relevant one?

 

[Vixen]

Meredith could easily have had DNA of her family members and British friends in various forms on her body, clothes, blanket, linen, pillowcase, etc. in Perugia. She arrived from England 6 weeks before the murder, presumably with a couple suitcases of clothes and other personal items. Anything she brought with her could have had on it DNA from home and friends - family members, other housemates, UK friends, a former boyfriend. Items which had not yet been laundered could shed DNA on items in her room that had been recently laundered. Place a freshly laundered blouse or bra on top of a sweater from home and, voila, DNA transfer possible. I would not have been surprised if DNA in her room were a match to her father, brothers, mother, or sister - even DNA on the bra clasp hook.

To obtain a reasonable sample of DNA, you need one transferred by saliva, perspiration, living cells rather than dead ones, or blood, i.e., newly wet.

Merely sweeping up specks of dust is wasting everybody's time. DNA is a helix shaped structure which is also very fragile once shed. Your aim would be to be able to identify allelles, haplotypes and mitchochrondrial Dna (the matrilineal line [ethnicity] and chromosomes, Y or X.

 

[anglolawyer]

The facts of the First Instance stand. What was being appealed was the interpretation thereof. ISC were looking at the appeal court's reasoning. It does not have the power to annul facts found.

A fact is a fact.

Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.

 

[Kauffer]

The facts of the First Instance stand. What was being appealed was the interpretation thereof. ISC were looking at the appeal court's reasoning. It does not have the power to annul facts found.

A fact is a fact.

So, you're suggesting that Massei's findings of fact were always capable of a different interpretation other than one supporting a finding of guilt. In other words, there was always, minimally, reasonable doubt in this case.

 

[anglolawyer]

He found as a fact they murdered Meredith. It would be pointless appealing in your system, Vixen.

 

[Strozzi]

It is unwise to discard the possibility of evidence-planting a priori. Consider Forensic Fraud for a few examples. The bra clasp DNA profile is the item most likely to have been the result of tampering, but there is no way to be certain IMO. Even if it were not, it is still worthless as evidence.

My recollection is that Dr. Gill's book is cited by the defense, which is not the same thing as a claim that Dr. Gill provided the appendix to the defense.

Vixen, please note the info above. Do you still claim that Dr. Gill provided an appendix for the defense?

 

[Vixen]

The court met once or twice a week at most and took a couple of months off for summer vacation. That's contempt of people on preventive detention, in my opinion. Your claim that it was brought forward after the verdict was not correct.

I fully agree with you. Avv Bongiornio stringing out the trial to stall time for Raf on the convenient excuse of expecting a baby was contempt, IYO.