Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Desert Fox]

RoseMontague,

Concerns about Stefanoni misremembering, etc. are well-founded. However, as several of us have said, the stain should have been tested in the first days of November, and if there were a DNA profile associated with the stain, that person should have been a suspect (probably the main suspect) until and unless cleared in some way. For example, if the stain were deposited by Meredith's boyfriend, then he should be a suspect until he produced strong alibi evidence (which of course he had).

PG commenters latch on to the putative lack of ability to date this stain and to the actions of Raffaele's team, but this is all tangential nonsense. No DNA sample can be dated by means of the DNA alone, but this logic applied to any DNA sample. I cannot think of a presumptive chemical test that provides time information either, but these limitations apply to all cases of sexual assault. Do these same PG commenters believe that one should never test a putative semen stain in a sexual assault case? BTW a damp stain might have been amenable to study, as Dr. Vinci's report mentioned (this was discussed here roughly a week ago).

As far as DNA testing, I think they should be done in an independent lab as double blind tests. You should not know who's DNA you are even looking for. Then have a second lab actually do a match-up.

 

[acbytesla]

We all know that computers lose their value. We also know that laptops back in 2007 as well as phones were targets for theft. They are mostly stolen for sale and the batteries to make meth. Why do you think you know about stolen tech selling in Italy? I'm not sure but I'd say it is like it is here and people knowing little about stuff sell it - that is both above and below the law.

Ask your cop buddy if laptops were stolen from cafes and phones now. I'm connected to LE here and I'm warned about phones in particular.

Is there not work divisions for you or do all salesmen do everything including acquiring the merch?

You think selling tech is really that much different in Italy than the US? I seriously doubt it. I've dealt with brokers in France, the UK, China, Brazil, Qatar and many other countries. There may be minor differences in every market, but the essential requirements for success is the same. Know what you are buying, pay as little as possible and quickly sell it before your profit margin disappears. You have to be in CONTACT with other buyers and sellers all the time.

I have NO doubt that phones, and laptops are stolen all over the world. Anything current has value. Still, the problem with laptops or any computer is the same. I can place 2 laptops that look pretty much identical in front of you, but they can be worth dramatically different. One could have a fast expensive CPU, the other a much slower and cheaper version. One could have a 50 GB drive the other 1 TB. One could have 512MB RAM, the other 16GB.

Rudy is a loser. He's been working at low pay service jobs like landscaping and restaurants. He cannot be reliably contacted. Sure, he knows how to go into a new Internet cafe and use Skype, so what? So does my elderly Aunt. What he probably doesn't know how to do is how to get top dollar for electronics.

I don't understand why it's isn't obvious to you that Rudy CAN'T be a fence.
Every single clue that makes you think he's a fence is what tells me that he's the burglar. The fences are buying his stolen equipment, because they have the avenues to sell it. It collected in his apartment until he sold it to a fence. Does anyone know if they have Pawn Brokers in Italy?

 

[analemma]

But you quoted from the wiki article, not the google search. Both statements seem to be more or less tecnically accurate, although for now there's still the thorny issue of most of the prison sentence being for a crime for which Knox has been convicted.

I did not quote from the Wiki Article: I quoted from the Google Search.
The statements are what appears on teh google search.
The second is in no way accurate, since the second does not even HINT at acquital or "wrongly convicted", readin g it would lead you to think that she is STILL accused of the murder.

 

[analemma]

They were acquitted - not exonerated - because of Hellmann's mischievousness.

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed breach of rule 12

 

[Desert Fox]

You think selling tech is really that much different in Italy than the US? I seriously doubt it. I've dealt with brokers in France, the UK, China, Brazil, Qatar and many other countries. There may be minor differences in every market, but the essential requirements for success is the same. Know what you are buying, pay as little as possible and quickly sell it before your profit margin disappears. You have to be in CONTACT with other buyers and sellers all the time.

I have NO doubt that phones, and laptops are stolen all over the world. Anything current has value. Still, the problem with laptops or any computer is the same. I can place 2 laptops that look pretty much identical in front of you, but they can be worth dramatically different. One could have a fast expensive CPU, the other a much slower and cheaper version. One could have a 50 GB drive the other 1 TB. One could have 512MB RAM, the other 16GB.

Rudy is a loser. He's been working at low pay service jobs like landscaping and restaurants. He cannot be reliably contacted. Sure, he knows how to go into a new Internet cafe and use Skype, so what? So does my elderly Aunt. What he probably doesn't know how to do is how to get top dollar for electronics.

I don't understand why it's isn't obvious to you that Rudy CAN'T be a fence.
Every single clue that makes you think he's a fence is what tells me that he's the burglar. The fences are buying his stolen equipment, because they have the avenues to sell it. It collected in his apartment until he sold it to a fence. Does anyone know if they have Pawn Brokers in Italy?

Back in around the 2007 time frame, I had a Dell Latitude C630. It had a 2 Ghz processor. Prior to that I had a C600 with a 700 Mhz processor. By external examination, they would have looked identical. Of course today you are lucky to get $30 to $50 for the C630.

Today, Acer manufactures huge number of different laptops which have basically the same case but some are single cores while some are quad cores. Even my quad core is worth only about $200 before the upgrades.

I too just do not believe he was a fence of computers for all of the reasons you mention. I am working more from the computer repair end of things.

 

[carbonjam72]

RoseMontague,

Concerns about Stefanoni misremembering, etc. are well-founded. However, as several of us have said, the stain should have been tested in the first days of November, and if there were a DNA profile associated with the stain, that person should have been a suspect (probably the main suspect) until and unless cleared in some way. For example, if the stain were deposited by Meredith's boyfriend, then he should be a suspect until he produced strong alibi evidence (which of course he had).
PG commenters latch on to the putative lack of ability to date this stain and to the actions of Raffaele's team, but this is all tangential nonsense. No DNA sample can be dated by means of the DNA alone, but this logic applied to any DNA sample. I cannot think of a presumptive chemical test that provides time information either, but these limitations apply to all cases of sexual assault. Do these same PG commenters believe that one should never test a putative semen stain in a sexual assault case? BTW a damp stain might have been amenable to study, as Dr. Vinci's report mentioned (this was discussed here roughly a week ago).

Hmmm. I'm not sure I quite agree entirely, and I'm sure this is a minor point. But Meredtih's boyfriend could have innocently left the stain at another time, since it is known he and Meredith were sexually active. If the stain were from someone who had no legitimate, or less plausible reason to be there, like Rudy, then that would be more incriminating for Rudy, somewhat more incriminating for Raffaele, and least incriminating for Meredith's known boyfriend.

However, apart from physical tests on the stain after the fact, this stain was stepped in while it was wet, in what are admittedly Rudy's shoeprints, which are also the shoeprints that were made in wet blood. So this shoeprint does date the fact that the satin was wet when the shoeprints were made, which are dated by the wet blood to the time of the murder, and undisputedly Rudy's.

Not to beat a dead horse, just saying, it sounds like the confirmation effect to say that simply identifying the ID of a DNA sample, even from a semen stain at a sexually aggravated murder, automatically makes one the "prime suspect".

I think Dr Gill actually said in his radio 4 BBC interview that the primary value of DNA evidence is to identify people who have no legitimate reason to be present at the scene (and less reliably, the time) of a crime.

Hope this isn't being nitpicky, but thought it worth mentioning.

 

[Bill Williams]

They were acquitted - not exonerated - because of Hellmann's mischievousness.

Constantly misrepresenting the "other side" does you no good at all, and exposes you to criticism - either of ignorance or of lying.

Hellmann exonerated, as is allowed in Italian law; he found they either did not commit the crime, or on the lesser charges, that the crime did not exist in the first place.

Pending the Marasca motivations report, that's where this sits. Deal with it.

Above all, you show no respect to the Kerchers who deserve to know the truth about the events which took the life of their loved one. You think Meredith's death is a joke.

 

[acbytesla]

Back in around the 2007 time frame, I had a Dell Latitude C630. It had a 2 Ghz processor. Prior to that I had a C600 with a 700 Mhz processor. By external examination, they would have looked identical. Of course today you are lucky to get $30 to $50 for the C630.

Today, Acer manufactures huge number of different laptops which have basically the same case but some are single cores while some are quad cores. Even my quad core is worth only about $200 before the upgrades.

I too just do not believe he was a fence of computers for all of the reasons you mention. I am working more from the computer repair end of things.

Exactly, there might even be a legitimate reason for all the computers in his apartment. They all could be junk. And he's learning. My educated guess, but it's still a guess is that Rudy will steal anything anywhere that he could. Laptops that get left unattended, law offices that he burglarizes etc. But just as I said, it is very difficult to glance at a laptop and know that it is valuable or junk. But he steals them whenever he can because they might be worth some money ..the key word is might. The junk laptop inventory that won't fetch much money grows in his apartment.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Hmmm. I'm not sure I quite agree entirely, and I'm sure this is a minor point. But Meredtih's boyfriend could have innocently left the stain at another time, since it is known he and Meredith were sexually active. If the stain were from someone who had no legitimate, or less plausible reason to be there, like Rudy, then that would be more incriminating for Rudy, somewhat more incriminating for Raffaele, and least incriminating for Meredith's known boyfriend.

However, apart from physical tests on the stain after the fact, this stain was stepped in while it was wet, in what are admittedly Rudy's shoeprints, which are also the shoeprints that were made in wet blood. So this shoeprint does date the fact that the satin was wet when the shoeprints were made, which are dated by the wet blood to the time of the murder, and undisputedly Rudy's.

Not to beat a dead horse, just saying, it sounds like the confirmation effect to say that simply identifying the ID of a DNA sample, even from a semen stain at a sexually aggravated murder, automatically makes one the "prime suspect".

I think Dr Gill actually said in his radio 4 BBC interview that the primary value of DNA evidence is to identify people who have no legitimate reason to be present at the scene (and less reliably, the time) of a crime.

Hope this isn't being nitpicky, but thought it worth mentioning.

Carbonjam72,

You raise some good points. and perhaps I should have said "possibly" rather than "probably." However, the stain that you mentioned was found very close to Meredith's legs, and her body was found partially undressed. If the stain were more distant or if Meredith were fully dressed, that would raise the odds that the stain and the crime were unrelated. Also, Giacomo is the only man who clearly had an innocent explanation for leaving a semen stain in her bedroom. Also, it may be worth mentioning that there are two separate stains, either or both of which may be semen.

 

[Vixen]

Constantly misrepresenting the "other side" does you no good at all, and exposes you to criticism - either of ignorance or of lying.

Hellmann exonerated, as is allowed in Italian law; he found they either did not commit the crime, or on the lesser charges, that the crime did not exist in the first place.

Pending the Marasca motivations report, that's where this sits. Deal with it.

Above all, you show no respect to the Kerchers who deserve to know the truth about the events which took the life of their loved one. You think Meredith's death is a joke.

Hellmann's exoneration was annulled, cancelled, blocked, spiked, shredded, ripped up, thrown in the garbage, flushed down the john, is no more, is non-extant, extinct, dead.


Clear now?

 

[Kauffer]

They were acquitted - not exonerated - because of Hellmann's mischievousness.

What's the difference between acquitted and exonerated, according to you?

 

[davefoc]

Rudi was convicted by the ISC.

https://borsinibellardi.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/

Raf had an Audi.

Thank you for the link. I read through quite a bit of it.

Ah, so is this the start of a series of posts from MichaelB containing images of different parts of an Audi? Or was there perhaps some specific reason for posting that particular image of an accelerator pedal from a particular Audi?

 

[Grinder]

You think selling tech is really that much different in Italy than the US? I seriously doubt it. I've dealt with brokers in France, the UK, China, Brazil, Qatar and many other countries. There may be minor differences in every market, but the essential requirements for success is the same. Know what you are buying, pay as little as possible and quickly sell it before your profit margin disappears. You have to be in CONTACT with other buyers and sellers all the time.

Tesla the legit computer biz is not the black market. In the black market people sell what they have for what they can get for it. It is not a boiler room operation and as little trail of transaction is the objective. Rudi did have phones as was recently shown here and we all know he had the lawyer's phone in Milan. When the item was stolen there isn't a profit margin per se. The fence sells for what he can get. Sometimes it a percentage split or a fixed price. At the lowest levels product is often advanced without payment.

Comparing your work experience to the underworld is not worthwhile.

I have NO doubt that phones, and laptops are stolen all over the world. Anything current has value. Still, the problem with laptops or any computer is the same. I can place 2 laptops that look pretty much identical in front of you, but they can be worth dramatically different. One could have a fast expensive CPU, the other a much slower and cheaper version. One could have a 50 GB drive the other 1 TB. One could have 512MB RAM, the other 16GB.

Not many 512s left. We all understand that here. Do you think that small time fences take a sales course? People like Rudi will buddy up in a bar or cafe and after sussing the person ask if they know anybody that needs (fill in the blank) because he just bought a new one or needs money for (fill in the blank). This is not the same skill as burglar.

For a period of time car stereos were stolen from me when my car was parked on the driveway. Turned out an apartment nearby was a carck sales facility and the thieves were trading in the stereos. My guess is that the drug dealers sold or fronted them to their fences as their business was selling drugs.

Rudy is a loser. He's been working at low pay service jobs like landscaping and restaurants. He cannot be reliably contacted. Sure, he knows how to go into a new Internet cafe and use Skype, so what? So does my elderly Aunt. What he probably doesn't know how to do is how to get top dollar for electronics.

Your Aunt most likely didn't use Internet cafes in 2007 to Skype but it was only an example. He also had his pic up on the laptop to prove it was his. He knew plenty enough to be a fence.

IIRC correctly you couldn't believe Mez would have interest in Rudi because of his looks and personality. At the time and now I think you are showing some prejudice. I think he is alright looking and seemed to have friends of both sexes.

You do realize at his age Amanda hadn't had any high level jobs. I believe offhand her "best" job was at an art gallery. She seemed to make most of her money waiting tables. I don't think Raf had worked at all.

[quoteI don't understand why it's isn't obvious to you that Rudy CAN'T be a fence.
Every single clue that makes you think he's a fence is what tells me that he's the burglar. The fences are buying his stolen equipment, because they have the avenues to sell it. It collected in his apartment until he sold it to a fence. Does anyone know if they have Pawn Brokers in Italy?[/QUOTE]

One doesn't "collect" stolen merchandise. Burglars offload it ASAP because they want to get the cash and they don't want to be caught with it because they may have left evidence behind that will get them a burglary charge.

Certainly there are thieves that pile up merch and when caught the police find large amounts of it.

I find it strange that you believe he just kept stealing stuff and kept it in his apartment as per the Spanish students. You meme is that he was broke and was desperate for money but didn't get rid of the loot.

Ask your cop friend about possession versus burglary and what they need to prove burglary. Ask him if small time burglars steal and then sell to end users or if they go through a loose network of friends to fence the loot.

 

[Grinder]

Hellmann's exoneration was annulled, cancelled, blocked, spiked, shredded, ripped up, thrown in the garbage, flushed down the john, is no more, is non-extant, extinct, dead.


Clear now?

Massei's and Nencini's convictions were annulled, cancelled, blocked, spiked, shredded, ripped up, thrown in the garbage, flushed down the john, is no more, is non-extant, extinct, dead.

There are no more levels. It's over except for the ECHR.

Clear now?

 

[Strozzi]

Hmmm. I'm not sure I quite agree entirely, and I'm sure this is a minor point. But Meredtih's boyfriend could have innocently left the stain at another time, since it is known he and Meredith were sexually active. If the stain were from someone who had no legitimate, or less plausible reason to be there, like Rudy, then that would be more incriminating for Rudy, somewhat more incriminating for Raffaele, and least incriminating for Meredith's known boyfriend.

However, apart from physical tests on the stain after the fact, this stain was stepped in while it was wet, in what are admittedly Rudy's shoeprints, which are also the shoeprints that were made in wet blood. So this shoeprint does date the fact that the satin was wet when the shoeprints were made, which are dated by the wet blood to the time of the murder, and undisputedly Rudy's.

Not to beat a dead horse, just saying, it sounds like the confirmation effect to say that simply identifying the ID of a DNA sample, even from a semen stain at a sexually aggravated murder, automatically makes one the "prime suspect".

I think Dr Gill actually said in his radio 4 BBC interview that the primary value of DNA evidence is to identify people who have no legitimate reason to be present at the scene (and less reliably, the time) of a crime.

Hope this isn't being nitpicky, but thought it worth mentioning.

Meredith could easily have had DNA of her family members and British friends in various forms on her body, clothes, blanket, linen, pillowcase, etc. in Perugia. She arrived from England 6 weeks before the murder, presumably with a couple suitcases of clothes and other personal items. Anything she brought with her could have had on it DNA from home and friends - family members, other housemates, UK friends, a former boyfriend. Items which had not yet been laundered could shed DNA on items in her room that had been recently laundered. Place a freshly laundered blouse or bra on top of a sweater from home and, voila, DNA transfer possible. I would not have been surprised if DNA in her room were a match to her father, brothers, mother, or sister - even DNA on the bra clasp hook.

 

[Bill Williams]

Constantly misrepresenting the "other side" does you no good at all, and exposes you to criticism - either of ignorance or of lying.

Hellmann exonerated, as is allowed in Italian law; he found they either did not commit the crime, or on the lesser charges, that the crime did not exist in the first place.

Pending the Marasca motivations report, that's where this sits. Deal with it.

Above all, you show no respect to the Kerchers who deserve to know the truth about the events which took the life of their loved one. You think Meredith's death is a joke.

Hellmann's exoneration was annulled, cancelled, blocked, spiked, shredded, ripped up, thrown in the garbage, flushed down the john, is no more, is non-extant, extinct, dead.


Clear now?

No. The 2013 ISC returned the case to the 2nd Instance Court, for review of various items. All of those items when tested at the Nencini court went the defence's way. All of them.

But it is nice to read one thing.... you now admit Hellmann exonerated, whereas before all you would say is "acquitted". I join Kauffer in asking: what is the difference? (You do know that the system assumes they are innocent until proven guilty?)

Once again you are making a mockery of Meredith's memory by expropriating this case for your purposes.

 

[Grinder]

Exactly, there might even be a legitimate reason for all the computers in his apartment. They all could be junk. And he's learning. My educated guess, but it's still a guess is that Rudy will steal anything anywhere that he could. Laptops that get left unattended, law offices that he burglarizes etc. But just as I said, it is very difficult to glance at a laptop and know that it is valuable or junk. But he steals them whenever he can because they might be worth some money ..the key word is might. The junk laptop inventory that won't fetch much money grows in his apartment.

How long was he in that flat?

You totally miss the point of stolen merch. They aren't competing with Dell or Best Buy or some off-the-wall computer repair and sales store.

Now you say there might be a legitimate reason. You really believe he kept stealing stuff he couldn't sell?

 

[Grinder]

Back in around the 2007 time frame, I had a Dell Latitude C630. It had a 2 Ghz processor. Prior to that I had a C600 with a 700 Mhz processor. By external examination, they would have looked identical. Of course today you are lucky to get $30 to $50 for the C630.

Today, Acer manufactures huge number of different laptops which have basically the same case but some are single cores while some are quad cores. Even my quad core is worth only about $200 before the upgrades.

I too just do not believe he was a fence of computers for all of the reasons you mention. I am working more from the computer repair end of things.

So do you believe he was a computer collector?

Btw, the lawyer's computer or was it the phone was new. Generally lawyers have relatively new computers because they are caught in the latest version of Word trap.

He was clearly fencing the stuff the only question is whether he did for others or himself.

 

[RoseMontague]

This should have been done at the preliminary hearings. You cannot show contempt of the court by springing it at the eleventh hour when you realise the trial hasn't gone your way.

The court met once or twice a week at most and took a couple of months off for summer vacation. That's contempt of people on preventive detention, in my opinion. Your claim that it was brought forward after the verdict was not correct.

 

[Strozzi]

How long was he in that flat?

You totally miss the point of stolen merch. They aren't competing with Dell or Best Buy or some off-the-wall computer repair and sales store.

Now you say there might be a legitimate reason. You really believe he kept stealing stuff he couldn't sell?

Maybe Rudi was upgrading!