Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[RoseMontague]

That was not what I was getting it. You are a careful commentator and if you haven't seen it there's a good chance that's because it ain't there and the reason for that (if so) would be Mignini's desperate need to downplay Rudy the Burglar.

True that. I did do a quick search of Fatal Gift of Beauty and did not see it so I will continue to try and track down where I got that from.

 

[RoseMontague]

Actually, this apparent forgetting to check for the presence of her own rent money seems not unusual for a 20-year-old student whose primary concern may be that her computer is safe.

In the US, the rent money if missing would have been paid (perhaps in part) by renter's insurance (if taken out); I don't know if there was an equivalent insurance on the Perugian flat. Otherwise the amount is actually not that large compared to likely family resources, including Amanda's bank account.

Amanda's portion was 300 Euro, after paying a 600 Euro initial deposit. Rudy's rent was 360 Euro according to Burleigh.

 

[RoseMontague]

Here's a quote from Dempsey..

To understand how drastically Rudy’s stories have changed, let’s rewind to 2007, the day Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered in her own bedroom. Rudy was down on his luck, depressed, drinking more than usual, said his friends. Nov. 1 was rent day all across Perugia. Rudy was fresh out of funds. Not only had he been abandoned by his adoptive family, but he’d also been fired from his gardening job. He was avoiding his landlady, who’d insisted that he provide her with a letter of employment.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/04/28/rudy-guede-amanda-knox-was-not-there/

 

[anglolawyer]

Actually, this apparent forgetting to check for the presence of her own rent money seems not unusual for a 20-year-old student whose primary concern may be that her computer is safe.

In the US, the rent money if missing would have been paid (perhaps in part) by renter's insurance (if taken out); I don't know if there was an equivalent insurance on the Perugian flat. Otherwise the amount is actually not that large compared to likely family resources, including Amanda's bank account.

I agree that it can be explained but don't see why Mig didn't major on it when cross examining her.

 

[Methos]

True that. I did do a quick search of Fatal Gift of Beauty and did not see it so I will continue to try and track down where I got that from.

I think this is as close as we could get to a "real" source (AFAIK we don't have the original testimony of Mancini or Mariani):
Micheli (page 20):

A quel punto, RUDI era sparito di nuovo, e nel mese di ottobre il padre del MANCINI era andato a cercarlo sul posto di lavoro, appurando che già da qualche tempo era stato licenziato perché si era dato malato, senza poi produrre alcuna certificazione medica per giustificare l’assenza.
[...]
Nel frattempo, la Polizia Giudiziaria si recava presso l’appartamento di Via del Canerino, contattando la proprietaria (MARANI RINA, residente a Foligno): la donna consegnava spontaneamente le chiavi dell’immobile, facendo presente che da qualche giorno non aveva notizie del conduttore, il quale le aveva detto già da prima della metà di ottobre di doversi recare all’estero, e non aveva ottemperato alla richiesta della signora di esibire il suo nuovo contratto di lavoro (volendo la MARANI essere tranquillizzata circa le possibilità del GUEDE di far fronte ai pagamenti del canone). Per tale motivo, era passata presso l’abitazione unitamente ad un’amica, ed era stata costei ad entrare rilevando che non vi era nessuno, malgrado la cucina in disordine.

google:

At that point, RUDI was gone again, and in October the father of MANCINI had gone looking for him at work, ascertaining that for some time he had been fired because he had called in sick, then not produce any medical certificate for justify the absence.
[...]
Meanwhile, the Judicial Police went to the apartment of Via del Canerino contacting the owner (MARANI RINA, resident in Foligno): the woman spontaneously handed the keys of the property, pointing out that a few days ago had not heard of conductor , who had said even before the middle of October of having to go abroad, and had not complied with the request of the lady to show her new work contract (the MARANI wanting to be reassured about the possibilities of GUEDE to cope payment of the rent). For this reason, she had gone to the home along with a friend, and she was to enter noting that there was no one, despite the messy kitchen.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, n=1 and all that, but that's what I've always done with my rent, because it then coincides with when I get paid.

Even if Guede didn't have insider knowledge of when the Pergola tenants' rent was due (and he could easily have had), and even if such arrangements are not formalised in Perugia, it was probably worth a punt as a lot of people were likely to be paying their rent at that time.

Imagine you are a student abroad paying rent in cash. You would want to hand over that cash ASAP, to transfer the risks and rewards of ownership, it being a sunk cost; i.e., there is nothing to be gained hanging onto it.

A burglar will therefore, reason the cash will be available on the last working day of the bank, before a four day bank closure.

There was absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of €1,200- lying around in wait for an impromptu burglar.

 

[Vixen]

One of the books, I believe it was Burleigh's claimed Rudy was already a month in arrears and facing eviction. I have not seen this in a court document however. We do know he had no job and no "official" source of income.

Nina Burleigh is a self-professed "advocate" journalist, presumably in exchange for biographical and insider info from the Knox family.

The argument, "Rudy was so desperately broke, he must be the burglar and murderer", doesn't cut mustard. As a naturalised (?) Italian, he was probably entitled to state benefits, the UK equivalent of Job Seekers Allowance and Housing Benefit. Being just one month in arrears and two month's unemployed, doesn't sound like sociopathic recklessness to me.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Imagine you are a student abroad paying rent in cash. You would want to hand over that cash ASAP, to transfer the risks and rewards of ownership, it being a sunk cost; i.e., there is nothing to be gained hanging onto it.

A burglar will therefore, reason the cash will be available on the last working day of the bank, before a four day bank closure.

There was absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of €1,200- lying around in wait for an impromptu burglar.

He knew the men who lived downstairs. We could plausibly speculate that he had inside information about rent money arrangements and had cased the house in advance.

Nina Burleigh is a self-professed "advocate" journalist, presumably in exchange for biographical and insider info from the Knox family.

The argument, "Rudy was so desperately broke, he must be the burglar and murderer", doesn't cut mustard. As a naturalised (?) Italian, he was probably entitled to state benefits, the UK equivalent of Job Seekers Allowance and Housing Benefit. Being just one month in arrears and two month's unemployed, doesn't sound like sociopathic recklessness to me.

I don't think anyone believes Rudy went out that night planning to fatally wound and then sexually assault anyone. He was short of cash and looking for money or goods he could fence to pay the rent. It all went wrong at some point, probably when Meredith came home unexpectedly.

 

[Kauffer]

As Nencinininimeenymoe notes all three of the accused were not found guilty of the theft of the money and he laments that there is little discussion of it to be found in prior rulings, especially concerning Guede's possible involvement. Now that it has been determined in the final ruling that AK and RS were not involved, one possible result of a new trial for Rudy might result in him being convicted of the theft of the money.

That would be double jeopardy, Rose.

 

[Vixen]

But the DNA results from the anal section of the rape kit were suppressed. Therefore, there is uncertainty what the anal dilatation signifies.

IIRC The inference was that b/f Giacomo enjoyed it.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

IIRC The inference was that b/f Giacomo enjoyed it.

I'm surprised Fiona and the bunnies never tried speculating that the fact that no chyme was present in Meredith's duodenum was because she engaged in that sexual practice when she got home and the process pushed all the chyme back up. It's no dafter than the prosecution theory that an incompetent pathologist pushed it all down to the other end of the system despite having tied off the bowels.

 

[Kauffer]

Imagine you are a student abroad paying rent in cash. You would want to hand over that cash ASAP, to transfer the risks and rewards of ownership, it being a sunk cost; i.e., there is nothing to be gained hanging onto it.

A burglar will therefore, reason the cash will be available on the last working day of the bank, before a four day bank closure.

There was absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of €1,200- lying around in wait for an impromptu burglar.

There are no guarantees for a burglar, but Meredith's money for the rent was there and not with Romanelli and it was taken. We know the arrangement at Amanda and Meredith's flat for the payment of rent - and that it wasn't handed over. So your first paragraph is irrelevant speculation in this case, which also happens not to be a guide to what actually happened. Guede was broke. We know that because he told Benedetti, from Germany. Yet he had money in Perugia immediately after the murder.

 

[Vixen]

But Amanda's was left in situ and when they took her back to the apartment on the 3rd or 4th she forgot to check it was still there (source: WTBH). It follows she must also have forgotten to check it when she returned with Raffaele and found F's window smashed. This is one of the few good points against her and one which strangely was not used. I have not been able to figure out why.

This underlines my view that Meredith being the only one stolen from (out of eight potential tenants with "cash lying around for the rent"), it was victimisation of Mez' rather than some desperately broke hobo breaking in looking for dough.

If Amanda was the perp, of course, her own rent remains safe.

 

[Vixen]

Actually, this apparent forgetting to check for the presence of her own rent money seems not unusual for a 20-year-old student whose primary concern may be that her computer is safe.

In the US, the rent money if missing would have been paid (perhaps in part) by renter's insurance (if taken out); I don't know if there was an equivalent insurance on the Perugian flat. Otherwise the amount is actually not that large compared to likely family resources, including Amanda's bank account.

Of course! 20 year olds suffer from early stage Alzheimers. How silly of us to not realise that.

 

[Vixen]

[/HILITE]

That would be double jeopardy, Rose.

Not if he wasn't charged for it in the first place. IIRC Amanda was charged and the charge dismissed.

 

[Kauffer]

Nina Burleigh is a self-professed "advocate" journalist, presumably in exchange for biographical and insider info from the Knox family.

The argument, "Rudy was so desperately broke, he must be the burglar and murderer", doesn't cut mustard. As a naturalised (?) Italian, he was probably entitled to state benefits, the UK equivalent of Job Seekers Allowance and Housing Benefit. Being just one month in arrears and two month's unemployed, doesn't sound like sociopathic recklessness to me.

You are confused. We are establishing motive, not proof of guilt from Guede's financial condition. We know he was broke. We have means and motive notwithstanding that there is evidence he was a practiced house breaker. We also have opportunity, but we don't need it, because we know he was there.

Remember, he cannot have set out to murder that night. The murder occurred because the burglary went wrong. The burglary went wrong because Kercher came home.

But if you have evidence of a source of income for Guede we haven't considered, we will consider it.

 

[Kauffer]

Not if he wasn't charged for it in the first place. IIRC Amanda was charged and the charge dismissed.

They were all acquitted.

"rudy hermann guede was also absolved of the theft (in his case of the entire indictment) according to article 530,2 by the gup of the court of perugia for not having committed the act. one understands that the judge evaluated the circumstance as totally devoid of proof, because in the entire body of the sentence there is no evaluation on the subject."

Nencini

 

[RoseMontague]

Nina Burleigh is a self-professed "advocate" journalist, presumably in exchange for biographical and insider info from the Knox family.

The argument, "Rudy was so desperately broke, he must be the burglar and murderer", doesn't cut mustard. As a naturalised (?) Italian, he was probably entitled to state benefits, the UK equivalent of Job Seekers Allowance and Housing Benefit. Being just one month in arrears and two month's unemployed, doesn't sound like sociopathic recklessness to me.

No, Guede was not an Italian citizen, we asked you for a cite and provided many cites showing otherwise. I will ask you again to provide a cite for your claim. He was not receiving housing benefits.

Stop quoting TJMK and PMF sources if you are concerned about quoting sources from those that advocate one way or another.

 

[RoseMontague]

Not if he wasn't charged for it in the first place. IIRC Amanda was charged and the charge dismissed.

Yes, we agree on something.

 

[Vixen]

No, Guede was not an Italian citizen, we asked you for a cite and provided many cites showing otherwise. I will ask you again to provide a cite for your claim. He was not receiving housing benefits.

Stop quoting TJMK and PMF sources if you are concerned about quoting sources from those that advocate one way or another.

If he was entitled to go to school in Italy and didn't need a visa to work he probably was naturalised. The TIMES reported he was of dual Italian - Ivory Coast nationality.

Do you have any reason to be vehemently against this idea?