Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[RoseMontague]

I don't agree. 1st November is a public holiday in Italy and in 2007 it fell on a Thursday. Chances are the rents were not due til the Friday, or even the Monday if everyone was taking a de facto extra long weekend.

One of the books, I believe it was Burleigh's claimed Rudy was already a month in arrears and facing eviction. I have not seen this in a court document however. We do know he had no job and no "official" source of income.

 

[Kauffer]

You still haven't cited a source that shows in Italy it is de rigueur to pay it on the first pcm, and on no other agreed date.

I do find your approach extraordinary. Here we are, essentially discussing Guede's possible motivation for committing a burglary. We already know he was short of money, had an urgent need for money, that the arrangement at via Pergola was payment of rent at the beginning of the month, that a normal arrangement in Perugia is calendar month tenancies, from which we might safely infer that "precisely from the first to the last day of any month" means payment at the beginning of any month, that the holiday period presented him with a special opportunity and that he had ready made sources of intelligence yet, apparently, all this is unconvincing to you.

On the other hand, with regard to other matters concerning evidence adduced against Amanda, amongst other things, you are prepared to argue, for example, that the mere appearance of her lamp in Kercher's room, is evidence of her presence in the room - a notorious fallacy, that despite there being no evidence in the record of the police hearing the washing machine, you accept Quenell's mere assertion of it and despite being unable to produce any evidence of crime scene cleaning, you state that it took place yet cannot account for why the bathroom, replete with visible blood, was not cleaned by Amanda who, on the morning of the 2nd, informed Romanelli of its condition.

At the very least, you can appreciate that your approach is severely disjointed, requiring rigorous, incontrovertible proof for the case for the defence and the ready acceptance of unsupported claims on behalf of the prosecution.

 

[Numbers]

Their report shows that this is true. They referenced a discredited 'expert' (involved in multiple wrongful convictions), in their analysis. They did not analyse the footprint, but a photo, they did not know the basic information about the taking of the photo needed to analyse the image correctly. Normally forensic anthropologist would analyse footprints not fingerprints specialists (fingerprint analysis is hugely unscientific but that is another issue). The measurements given can only be obtained if they measured to fit the control print not blind. This was the most corrupt bit of forensic science, Stefanoni was merely careless and incompetent.

Stefanoni committed perjury (for example, her testimony on the quantity of DNA on the knife blade) and suppressed evidence (TMB testing, DNA data - especially the EDFs). Her carelessness and incompetence were cover-ups for her cheating. She relied on contamination to achieve her wrongful DNA results, rather than deliberately planting evidence. Her interpretation of data - presentation of results - must be regarded as intentionally misleading. That is, they were fraudulent misrepresentations.

 

[Numbers]

I have been practising landlord and tenant law in England for over 35 years. It is not unusual to find rent payable quarterly under commercial leases and long residential leases (meaning leases granted for fixed terms of many years - 99 being a typical number). I cannot remember coming across a short term residential lease under which the rent was payable other than weekly, four-weekly or monthly (the most common by far). Rent payment days under these last usually start with the first day of the tenancy, whatever it is. So there is nothing magical about the first of the month.

The common US practice, in my experience, is to pay an initial partial (prorated) month's rent if occupancy does not begin on the first of the month, then continue with rent due on the first of each month until expiration of the lease. However, this is only a common practice for convenience, and set in a lease or other agreement, not a requirement set by statute.

 

[Numbers]

To be fair to the police, one of the forensic pathologists reported anal dilatation and internal trauma compatible with anal sex. Subsequently the consensus was this was compatible with constipation. The latter if true may be relevant, it may imply slow bowel transit which would fit with slow gastric emptying.

But the DNA results from the anal section of the rape kit were suppressed. Therefore, there is uncertainty what the anal dilatation signifies.

 

[lonepinealex]

The common US practice, in my experience, is to pay an initial partial (prorated) month's rent if occupancy does not begin on the first of the month, then continue with rent due on the first of each month until expiration of the lease. However, this is only a common practice for convenience, and set in a lease or other agreement, not a requirement set by statute.

Yes, n=1 and all that, but that's what I've always done with my rent, because it then coincides with when I get paid.

Even if Guede didn't have insider knowledge of when the Pergola tenants' rent was due (and he could easily have had), and even if such arrangements are not formalised in Perugia, it was probably worth a punt as a lot of people were likely to be paying their rent at that time.

 

[Numbers]

Not quite. It applies to civil law too and concerns evidence or argument devised for use in court.

Yes, this is one meaning. The word is also used in the US for debates, as for example in high school or college debating societies.

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forensic
Full Definition of FORENSIC
1 : belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate
2 : argumentative, rhetorical
3 : relating to or dealing with the application of scientific knowledge to legal problems <forensic medicine> <forensic science> <forensic pathologist> <forensic experts>

 

[Kauffer]

Yes, this is one meaning. The word is also used in the US for debates, as for example in high school or college debating societies.

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forensic
Full Definition of FORENSIC
1 : belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate
2 : argumentative, rhetorical
3 : relating to or dealing with the application of scientific knowledge to legal problems <forensic medicine> <forensic science> <forensic pathologist> <forensic experts>

Yes - the root, as anglo's post recognises, is from the Latin "forensis", meaning for the "forum". Hence, a court, for example.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes, this is one meaning. The word is also used in the US for debates, as for example in high school or college debating societies.

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forensic
Full Definition of FORENSIC
1 : belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate
2 : argumentative, rhetorical
3 : relating to or dealing with the application of scientific knowledge to legal problems <forensic medicine> <forensic science> <forensic pathologist> <forensic experts>

From the Latin forens, belonging to the forum, public

ETA, already Ninja'd (twice)

 

[Numbers]

I agree with this part of your case but it does not persuade me that Guede did not burgle the apartment.

Did the rental agreement stipulate that the rent would be due the day after if the first of the month was a (legal) holiday in Italy? That is a common lease agreement term in the US. Part of the reason for this is that banks in the US are closed on legal holidays. I don't know if this applied to the cottage flat rental in Perugia, but I would think it is a discoverable fact. Certainly the amount of cash stolen from Meredith seems to approximate her share of the rent. I believe the procedure of the four women was that the three would give their shares in cash to Filomena and she would pay the agency.

 

[anglolawyer]

I am conversant with the FRICS Code of Practice re rent & service charges. You will agree that in England & Wales, the date due for monthly rent is by agreement between landlord and tenant. There is no mandate, "It must be paid on the first of a calendar monrth."

Yes, I do agree, as I already said. Mostly, the monthly rent payment day in a short term residential tenancy in E & W coincides with the date on which the tenancy starts. The practise in Italy may be identical or wildly different for all I know. It is a weak argument to suggest, as I think you do, that because things work one way here they probably work the same over there. Differences in legal systems, patterns of ownership, demography, historical custom and practise and what not will all play their part in creating differences from one place to another.

It's also a weak argument (either way I should have thought) to seek to suggest that whether Guede was burglarising that night hangs on whether rent was due.

 

[RoseMontague]

The common US practice, in my experience, is to pay an initial partial (prorated) month's rent if occupancy does not begin on the first of the month, then continue with rent due on the first of each month until expiration of the lease. However, this is only a common practice for convenience, and set in a lease or other agreement, not a requirement set by statute.

Mortgages are similar in the US, generally due on the first of each month and if you close in the middle of the month a prorated portion of the mortgage interest for that month is paid out of closing to have your payments fall on the first.

 

[anglolawyer]

One of the books, I believe it was Burleigh's claimed Rudy was already a month in arrears and facing eviction. I have not seen this in a court document however. We do know he had no job and no "official" source of income.

Now, I wonder why that could be ...

 

[RoseMontague]

It's also a weak argument (either way I should have thought) to seek to suggest that whether Guede was burglarising that night hangs on whether rent was due.

According to the court testimony, the rent was due on the first, it had not yet been paid and it was established as a judicial fact that Meredith's money was kept in her room and was now missing.

 

[RoseMontague]

Now, I wonder why that could be ...

Yep, I should withdraw this one. I read it somewhere really doesn't fly around here.

 

[Numbers]

From Nencini:

"...the witness testimonies heard in the first trial that in the days preceding november 1st, 2007, nearing the due date of the monthly rent payment, filomena romanelli invited all of the girls to procure the sum of 300 euro that constituted the amount each of them had to pay for the payment of the rent of the apartment they occupied. it also results that the victim had the money at her disposal, and evidently kept it in her bedroom."

The rent hadn't been paid, which presumably was because of the extra long holiday weekend and nobody being available to accept it. But we know Guede was under a great deal of pressure over his own unpaid rent and urgently needed money.

Ron Hendry speculates:

"Rudy Guede had no visible means of financial support and had been active of late as a burglar – Being the first day of the month, Rudy’s rent was due as was rent for others in Perugia. Being a long holiday weekend, many would be gone and some would be expected to have rent money stashed in their apartments. Thus, Rudy had strong motivation to locate an empty apartment for burglarizing."

If the money was going to be there on the 31st, it would likely be there on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th for payment on the 5th, as a result of the peculiar circumstances of November 2007. And 1st November was a quiet night in Perugia. The 31st was not.

But whether Guede chose the right day or not in any case does not detract from his very clearly defined motivation.

You still haven't cited a source that shows in Italy it is de rigueur to pay it on the first pcm, and on no other agreed date.

Vixen,
See Kauffer's post with the quote from Nencini.

 

[anglolawyer]

According to the court testimony, the rent was due on the first, it had not yet been paid and it was established as a judicial fact that Meredith's money was kept in her room and was now missing.

But Amanda's was left in situ and when they took her back to the apartment on the 3rd or 4th she forgot to check it was still there (source: WTBH). It follows she must also have forgotten to check it when she returned with Raffaele and found F's window smashed. This is one of the few good points against her and one which strangely was not used. I have not been able to figure out why.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yep, I should withdraw this one. I read it somewhere really doesn't fly around here.

That was not what I was getting it. You are a careful commentator and if you haven't seen it there's a good chance that's because it ain't there and the reason for that (if so) would be Mignini's desperate need to downplay Rudy the Burglar.

 

[RoseMontague]

But Amanda's was left in situ and when they took her back to the apartment on the 3rd or 4th she forgot to check it was still there (source: WTBH). It follows she must also have forgotten to check it when she returned with Raffaele and found F's window smashed. This is one of the few good points against her and one which strangely was not used. I have not been able to figure out why.

As Nencinininimeenymoe notes all three of the accused were not found guilty of the theft of the money and he laments that there is little discussion of it to be found in prior rulings, especially concerning Guede's possible involvement. Now that it has been determined in the final ruling that AK and RS were not involved, one possible result of a new trial for Rudy might result in him being convicted of the theft of the money.

 

[Numbers]

But Amanda's was left in situ and when they took her back to the apartment on the 3rd or 4th she forgot to check it was still there (source: WTBH). It follows she must also have forgotten to check it when she returned with Raffaele and found F's window smashed. This is one of the few good points against her and one which strangely was not used. I have not been able to figure out why.

Actually, this apparent forgetting to check for the presence of her own rent money seems not unusual for a 20-year-old student whose primary concern may be that her computer is safe.

In the US, the rent money if missing would have been paid (perhaps in part) by renter's insurance (if taken out); I don't know if there was an equivalent insurance on the Perugian flat. Otherwise the amount is actually not that large compared to likely family resources, including Amanda's bank account.