Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[bagels]

I would have not taken the phones or credit cards. I would have quickly checked the other girl's rooms for cash.

I know it's not popular here, but the scene in Filomena's was odd. He went in there and threw around some clothes but wasn't organizing stuff in a pile or in the ubiquitous pillow case to haul it away. He just tossed stuff around and then went to the bathroom. Now of course it makes sense that he wouldn't want to haul off anything of size after the murder.

He did something similar in lawyers office. The lawyers speculated he was trying to cover the broken glass with clothes so he wouldn't directly walk on it. But in Filomena's the clothes are just kind of piled around. There's no pictures of the lawyers office to compare, just testimony:

PB: The rock was outside, the glass was inside, the glass of the window in part on the corridor and they were covered with our clothes, mine and those of Lawyer Palazzoli, placed right on top of the glass.

PM: They were on top of the glass.

PB: On top of the glass, and the thing surprised us, “maybe” we said “to not make noise passing over them”, I don’t know, it is only a supposition.

 

[lonepinealex]

I have been practising landlord and tenant law in England for over 35 years. It is not unusual to find rent payable quarterly under commercial leases and long residential leases (meaning leases granted for fixed terms of many years - 99 being a typical number). I cannot remember coming across a short term residential lease under which the rent was payable other than weekly, four-weekly or monthly (the most common by far). Rent payment days under these last usually start with the first day of the tenancy, whatever it is. So there is nothing magical about the first of the month.

Inspired by Vixen, I'm going to approach my landlord with a deal. Instead of paying 850 quid every month, I'll see if he'll accept a tithe of beetroot or something at Michaelmas.

 

[Vixen]

Um...let's see...

1) Because monthly rent payments usually in cash are the typical arrangement
2) Because he knew the guys downstairs and guys talk
3) Because he was hanging out with students a lot of the time

If you're still in doubt, give these people a call: "Perugia student living"

http://english.studentliving.eu/categorie/soluzioni-abitative

"The minimum rental period is of 30 days and precisely from the first to the last day of any month."
And that is positively my last word on the subject.

Re the issue of the quarter day rent url. My last edit was 3:36 to include the source. Your sneering response I left out the source was timed at 3:38. Q.E.D.::

The rental period might be generally a calendar month. That doesn't prove all rent in Italy is due on the 1st. It can equally be two weeks in advance, two in arrears.

 

[Vixen]

I have been practising landlord and tenant law in England for over 35 years. It is not unusual to find rent payable quarterly under commercial leases and long residential leases (meaning leases granted for fixed terms of many years - 99 being a typical number). I cannot remember coming across a short term residential lease under which the rent was payable other than weekly, four-weekly or monthly (the most common by far). Rent payment days under these last usually start with the first day of the tenancy, whatever it is. So there is nothing magical about the first of the month.

Trust me. I run businesses. Quarter day rent/service charges for leaseholds is still the convention.

 

[Vixen]

I agree that, one way or another, Rudy was probably using info gleaned from his social connection with the house. It may have concerned the keys, travel plans or rent arrangements (perhaps overheard if not actually related to him).

Really? He's so smart, he turns up almost after the day the rent is due: the eve of the 2nd. How dumb can you get, as a conscientious tenant due to pay rent on the first, will have banked it the last working day prior to the first, i.e., 31st October.

 

[Vixen]

Incidentally, there is an obvious problem with the argument that Rudy was hoping to scoop up all the rent money. He was a day late. For that reason and also because everybody could be expected to be partying on Halloween, he should have chosen the previous evening.

You see the problem ?

 

[Vixen]

Inspired by Vixen, I'm going to approach my landlord with a deal. Instead of paying 850 quid every month, I'll see if he'll accept a tithe of beetroot or something at Michaelmas.

He'll think you a well bred gentleman.

------
And at the end of seven years she pays a tithe to Hell
I so fair and full of flesh am feared it be myself
But tonight is Hallowe'en and the faerie folk ride

~ Tam Lin - Richard Thompson

 

[RoseMontague]

Trust me. I run businesses. Quarter day rent/service charges for leaseholds is still the convention.

It doesn't really matter when rents are paid by businesses in fantasy land or wherever it is you reside. What matters is what the norm is for students renting in Perugia, Italy which somebody has already cited as the first of the month.

 

[anglolawyer]

Trust me. I run businesses. Quarter day rent/service charges for leaseholds is still the convention.

Well I draft, advise about and litigate over commercial and residential leases and may well have done so since before you were born, so I think it is you who should trust me. You are conflating commercial practise with residential, specifically short term rental of the kind Amanda signed up to.

I do not claim to know the practise in Italy better than you but I know how it works where you and I hail from.

 

[anglolawyer]

Really? He's so smart, he turns up almost after the day the rent is due: the eve of the 2nd. How dumb can you get, as a conscientious tenant due to pay rent on the first, will have banked it the last working day prior to the first, i.e., 31st October.

You see the problem ?

I agree with this part of your case but it does not persuade me that Guede did not burgle the apartment.

 

[RoseMontague]

If one has a loose grip on ethics, then yes, let's not bother with courts! We'll let the PR agencies slug it out. Buy tv time, footbal team sponsorship and hire cheerleaders.

We'll be right back after this commercial break sponsored by Tsmernov (sp_?).

Tuneful ditty : Hey, hey, hey, there's noone like Ted Bundy. Timothy McVeigh, such a regular guy! Fight the convictions today!"

Are you comparing the Duke Lacrosse team to Ted Bundy & Timothy McVeigh? The smart kids also hired a PR firm. If something similar happens to me or mine, I'm hiring a PR firm. You can let the Press have a field day without fighting the lies and misinformation if you are concerned about the ethics of hiring a PR firm. Not me.

 

[anglolawyer]

Inspired by Vixen, I'm going to approach my landlord with a deal. Instead of paying 850 quid every month, I'll see if he'll accept a tithe of beetroot or something at Michaelmas.

 

[Kauffer]

Incidentally, there is an obvious problem with the argument that Rudy was hoping to scoop up all the rent money. He was a day late. For that reason and also because everybody could be expected to be partying on Halloween, he should have chosen the previous evening.

From Nencini:

"...the witness testimonies heard in the first trial that in the days preceding november 1st, 2007, nearing the due date of the monthly rent payment, filomena romanelli invited all of the girls to procure the sum of 300 euro that constituted the amount each of them had to pay for the payment of the rent of the apartment they occupied. it also results that the victim had the money at her disposal, and evidently kept it in her bedroom."

The rent hadn't been paid, which presumably was because of the extra long holiday weekend and nobody being available to accept it. But we know Guede was under a great deal of pressure over his own unpaid rent and urgently needed money.

Ron Hendry speculates:

"Rudy Guede had no visible means of financial support and had been active of late as a burglar – Being the first day of the month, Rudy’s rent was due as was rent for others in Perugia. Being a long holiday weekend, many would be gone and some would be expected to have rent money stashed in their apartments. Thus, Rudy had strong motivation to locate an empty apartment for burglarizing."

If the money was going to be there on the 31st, it would likely be there on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th for payment on the 5th, as a result of the peculiar circumstances of November 2007. And 1st November was a quiet night in Perugia. The 31st was not.

But whether Guede chose the right day or not in any case does not detract from his very clearly defined motivation.

 

[RoseMontague]

You have no idea how the police work. They are literally teams of several hundred people. Teams of investigators (detectives) collate the evidence, scientific, eye witness, circumstantial, behaviour, etc., etc.

Hours and hours of transcribed interviews.

They have to produce a report for the prosecutors, who make the decision as to whether there is enough evidence. Producing a report, means making recommendations.

Next, a completely independent body, the judiciary, arranges hearings to appraise what the issues are, the witnesses, the jurisdictions, etc.

At any point, the emphasis can shift.

What I do know is that a self proclaimed expert on the Italian justice system that used to post here has said that Stefanoni had a strategy of what information to disclose and when to disclose it, a strategy that was designed to favor the prosecution.

 

[lonepinealex]

I agree with this part of your case but it does not persuade me that Guede did not burgle the apartment.

I don't agree. 1st November is a public holiday in Italy and in 2007 it fell on a Thursday. Chances are the rents were not due til the Friday, or even the Monday if everyone was taking a de facto extra long weekend.

 

[Vixen]

It doesn't really matter when rents are paid by businesses in fantasy land or wherever it is you reside. What matters is what the norm is for students renting in Perugia, Italy which somebody has already cited as the first of the month.

You still haven't cited a source that shows in Italy it is de rigueur to pay it on the first pcm, and on no other agreed date.

 

[Vixen]

I don't agree. 1st November is a public holiday in Italy and in 2007 it fell on a Thursday. Chances are the rents were not due til the Friday, or even the Monday if everyone was taking a de facto extra long weekend.

It is still a stretch to state confidently that "Rudy knew there would be €1,200- lying around, and that's why he burgled his student pals on 1st November."

 

[RoseMontague]

You still haven't cited a source that shows in Italy it is de rigueur to pay it on the first pcm, and on no other agreed date.

Kaufer cited it. Where's your cite?

 

[Vixen]

Well I draft, advise about and litigate over commercial and residential leases and may well have done so since before you were born, so I think it is you who should trust me. You are conflating commercial practise with residential, specifically short term rental of the kind Amanda signed up to.

I do not claim to know the practise in Italy better than you but I know how it works where you and I hail from.

I am conversant with the FRICS Code of Practice re rent & service charges. You will agree that in England & Wales, the date due for monthly rent is by agreement between landlord and tenant. There is no mandate, "It must be paid on the first of a calendar monrth."

 

[lonepinealex]

I am conversant with the FRICS Code of Practice re rent & service charges. You will agree that in England & Wales, the date due for monthly rent is by agreement between landlord and tenant. There is no mandate, "It must be paid on the first of a calendar monrth."

What does this have to do with the price of fish? Kauffer gave you the cite relevant to this specific circumstance above, and it was from your beloved Nencini, so I'm amazed* you're still arguing the point.




*not really.