George Zimmerman shot

[RandFan]

Presumably, everyone who believes in an omnipotent, omniscient god (i.e. most religious folks) believe that whatever transpires must be part of God's plan.

Except that Christians are big on "personal responsibility" and repentance. Repentance for what? Carrying out god's plan? I know of nothing in the Bible that says do whatever you want because it's god's plan anyway.

 

[The Big Dog]

Apparently you don't know what "rooting for Apperson" means. No surprise there.

Oh you were rooting AGAINST Zimmerman when you said too bad he only suffered a minor injury.

I thought when you said it was "too bad" that Zimmerman only suffered a minor injury that you were rooting for the person who shot at him to cause a major injury.

You were just saying too bad to the minor injury, but not rooting for the shooter.

Damn good thing you cleared that up.

For more than a minor injury is not equal to for the shooter to cause more than a minor injury.

Solid explanation, thanks for clearing that up. Silly me.

 

[Bar]

Personally, I think that is a form of insanity.

If someone doesn't believe he has free will, which is a perfectly philosophically defensible position.. is that a form of insanity too?

 

[RandFan]

If someone doesn't believe he has free will, which is a perfectly philosophically defensible position.. is that a form of insanity too?

I don't think you will have a fruitful discussion without defining free will and/or explaining why you feel that one's disbelief in free will has any bearing on the discussion. There are hidden assumptions in your argument. FWIW: Most philosophers do not see the absence of free will as meaning we are robots incapable of critically analyzing our decisions. The purpose of consciousness is, in part, to give us an immersive model of reality so that we can look at the past, the future and think about how our actions can harm us or how we can harm others. Consciousness of guilt, the awareness that we have harmed others can inform future decisions (whether we consciously make decisions is the salient point). In short, not having free will does not mean that we cannot be moral agents.

I think the vast majority of people do not understand what the philosophical concept of free will is. What do you think it is? The ability to make decisions?

 

[sunmaster14]

<snip>

I think the vast majority of people do not understand what the philosophical concept of free will is. What do you think it is? The ability to make decisions?

An illusion. A damn good one.

Anyway, getting back to GZ's comment about "God's will," I think you're reading way too much into that. Religious people say stuff like that in the same way I might say "God bless you" when you sneeze. I'm not really thinking that I want God to bless you. What I'm really thinking is "Cover your damn mouth next time dude."

 

[RandFan]

Anyway, getting back to GZ's comment about "God's will," I think you're reading way too much into that. Religious people say stuff like that in the same way I might say "God bless you" when you sneeze. I'm not really thinking that I want God to bless you. What I'm really thinking is "Cover your damn mouth next time dude."

Religious people are capable of sorrow and regret even when they are in the right. A neighbor of my grandmothers killed an intruder. He knew he did the right thing. He lived with regret until the day he died.

"I feel it was all God's plan and for me to second guess it or judge it..." Zimmerman said, pursing his lips and shaking his head.

Martin had not broken the law prior to GZ following him. Martin is dead because of Zimmerman and the guy has no remorse about the consequence and that loved ones morn daily his passing. Zimmerman killed someone who is dead only because Zimmerman suspected Martin was committing a crime or that he was going to commit a crime. Zimmerman has zero evidence for that. Yet his decisions resulted in the death of an innocent person and he, Zimmerman, doesn't give a ****.

I don't know of a religion that teaches people that they don't have personal responsibility for anything. That we should not morn the death of others because that is god's plan.

 

[johnny karate]

That's very weak tea. Also selective quoting on your part from an article referring to an emergency homeowner's association meeting in the aftermath of the shooting.

You made this comment:

It takes some pretty strange behavior for your neighbor to rat you out like this.

I provided an example in which one of Zimmerman's neighbors did exactly that, and left it up to everyone else to determine how meaningful it was in that instance as compared to this one.

There must have been dozens if not hundreds of people at that meeting, and no doubt some had an agenda given the political dynamics in play.

You made this comment:

It takes some pretty strange behavior for your neighbor to rat you out like this.

I provided an example in which one of Zimmerman's neighbors did exactly that, and left it up to everyone else to determine how meaningful it was in that instance as compared to this one.

In any case, your point is irrelevant. The alleged complaints were about Zimmerman's actions in his capacity as neighborhood watch captain. He was not acting in that capacity during any of his encounters with Apperson. Whether or not Zimmerman was overzealous in a role in which he thought (rightly or wrongly) that he was granted some policing authority tells us very little about how he acts as a private citizen.

Perhaps there is some confusion. I’m talking about how media reports of Zimmerman's neighbor “ratting him out" relate to his previous legal entanglement (well, his most notorious one at least), not this most recent incident. And again, I’m leaving it up to the reader to determine how meaningful such reports are.

Ultimately, it’s just fun to watch so-called “critical thinkers” tie themselves in knots in their special pleading for Zimmerman.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm going by the facts which have been reported. To wit, a bullet hole centered around head height in the passenger window of GZ's car, and was close enough to his face to cause injuries from flying glass, and Apperson's statement to an officer afterwards that he hoped he "got him this time." Seems like the police are undercharging Apperson for now, but perhaps "intent" is very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in such a brief encounter like this.

You have been given no facts that give you knowledge of Apperson’s intent, and are in contradiction with the police who investigated the incident and have a great deal more facts at their disposal than you.

You are merely asserting your opinion as fact.

 

[Ziggurat]

You have been given no facts that give you knowledge of Apperson’s intent, and are in contradiction with the police who investigated the incident and have a great deal more facts at their disposal than you.

You are merely asserting your opinion as fact.

He is asserting opinion, but he is also basing it on facts. His interpretation of Apperson's statement is not conclusive, but it is reasonable. And it is not in contradiction with public statements from the police. That they are not charging him with attempted murder does not mean they think it wasn't attempted murder, it could merely mean they don't think they can prove it in court, and so will only pursue lesser charges they are confident of.

 

[RandFan]

Martin had not broken the law prior to GZ following him. Martin is dead because of Zimmerman and the guy has no remorse about the consequence and that loved ones morn daily his passing. Zimmerman killed someone who is dead only because Zimmerman suspected Martin was committing a crime or that he was going to commit a crime. Zimmerman has zero evidence for that. Yet his decisions resulted in the death of an innocent person and he, Zimmerman, doesn't give a ****.

BTW: Assuming that Zimmerman had seen Martin commit a crime I would still find his words obnoxious and evidence of a lack of any empathy for Martin.

 

[12AX7]

In any event, I stand by this post. GZ IS treated as a hero. He is defended by many for all of his nonsense regardless of what he is alleged to have done. The utter lack of any criticism toward him from his fans sickens me to no end. Domestic violence (he wasn't convicted so we cannot form an opinion. **** that nonsense).

This.

I'll hoist a voka in the air the day George Zimmerman assumes room temperature, and I don't give a **** how it happens, by whom or what label anyone gives me as a result.

It's not recent, sunmaster. Examples go back years. And on the current trajectory, he's likely to put you on ignore. I don't say that to dissuade you, though, it's not exactly a punishment.

Agree. It must really suck to have a former conservative team mate no longer on your team. I can understand your frustration.

Yep, exactly. For someone in GZ's predicament who was already very religious, clinging tight to the "it was all god's plan!" idea is probably even more appealing as a way to shield his mind from all the incredibly strong and persistent criticism of him and his actions that was happening from essentially the whole planet.

Plus the trouble he'd caused his family and the fear of going to prison or being killed by someone. "It's all god's plan" is a warm blanket to wrap yourself in to alleviate guilt and reduce doubt.

Not necessarily a craziness indicator.

Yes. He felt so riddled with guilt he could sign autographs and pose for pics with employees (while smiling) in the factory of the maker of the gun he used.

Such a burden for him to bear.

 

[12AX7]

In any event, I stand by this post. GZ IS treated as a hero. He is defended by many for all of his nonsense regardless of what he is alleged to have done. The utter lack of any criticism toward him from his fans sickens me to no end. Domestic violence (he wasn't convicted so we cannot form an opinion. **** that nonsense).

I'd also add that any criticism of him earns you the title "SJW" from the GZAKers.

Oh, and you become pro-crime too.

 

[Ziggurat]

Agree. It must really suck to have a former conservative team mate no longer on your team. I can understand your frustration.

You want to claim him? Be my guest.

 

[sunmaster14]

Religious people are capable of sorrow and regret even when they are in the right. A neighbor of my grandmothers killed an intruder. He knew he did the right thing. He lived with regret until the day he died.

"I feel it was all God's plan and for me to second guess it or judge it..." Zimmerman said, pursing his lips and shaking his head.

Martin had not broken the law prior to GZ following him. Martin is dead because of Zimmerman and the guy has no remorse about the consequence and that loved ones morn daily his passing. Zimmerman killed someone who is dead only because Zimmerman suspected Martin was committing a crime or that he was going to commit a crime. Zimmerman has zero evidence for that. Yet his decisions resulted in the death of an innocent person and he, Zimmerman, doesn't give a ****.

I don't agree with a lot of your assumptions or conclusions about the Trayvon Martin killing, but I'll only comment about Zimmerman's state of mind. I don't agree that Zimmerman has no remorse. I think he showed a fair amount of remorse immediately after Martin's death. I interpret his demeanor in that interview as one of respectful defiance towards a slightly hostile question.

I don't know of a religion that teaches people that they don't have personal responsibility for anything. That we should not morn the death of others because that is god's plan.

It's not a question of personal responsibility. It's a question of torturing yourself with regret, obsessing over things that you cannot change. Actually Arabic has a word that's used quite frequently by Muslims - inshallah. It means basically the same thing as what GZ said. Also, FYI, "mourn" is spelled mourn.

 

[12AX7]

Whether or not Zimmerman was overzealous in a role in which he thought (rightly or wrongly) that he was granted some policing authority tells us very little about how he acts as a private citizen.

It tells us a great deal about how he acts as a private citizen.

 

[Rare Truth]

This. ....
Yes. He felt so riddled with guilt he could sign autographs and pose for pics with employees (while smiling) in the factory of the maker of the gun he used.

Such a burden for him to bear.

Don't forget this little bit of Lookame --

Georgie boy's little attention-seeking gem of his "celebrity boxing challenge" from last year...

"Who wants the first shot?

George Zimmerman has announced he's putting up his dukes for a celebrity boxing match — one that still needs an opponent.

"It was my idea," the heavyweight gunslinger told Radar Online of his upcoming plans orchestrated by former professional boxer Damon Feldman.

Zimmerman called boxing a hobby he had "prior to the incident" ...

In a newly released photo of Zimmerman showing off his guns — of the flesh and blood variety — he grins from ear-to-ear with two balled-up fists in the air."


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...rees-celebrity-boxing-match-article-1.1597473

 

[RandFan]

I don't agree with a lot of your assumptions or conclusions about the Trayvon Martin killing, but I'll only comment about Zimmerman's state of mind. I don't agree that Zimmerman has no remorse. I think he showed a fair amount of remorse immediately after Martin's death. I interpret his demeanor in that interview as one of respectful defiance towards a slightly hostile question.

Could you provide a video or source?

It's not a question of personal responsibility. It's a question of torturing yourself with regret, obsessing over things that you cannot change. Actually Arabic has a word that's used quite frequently by Muslims - inshallah. It means basically the same thing as what GZ said.

I don't think he has to torture himself. A little reverence for the death of a fellow human being would be nice. Many people suffer emotional trauma when they kill another person. The capacity for empathy lies on a gradient. Some have none. Some have too much but most people lie somewhere in between. Saying it was not his fault but god's is simply an attempt to avoid personal responsibility for one's actions.

Also, FYI, "mourn" is spelled mourn.

Thanks. Always great to learn new things and it's unfortunate when others cannot comprehend the message being conveyed for lack of clarity.

 

[RandFan]

I'd also add that any criticism of him earns you the title "SJW" from the GZAKers.

Oh, and you become pro-crime too.

You are not pro-crime?

Yeah, for those who lack the ability to think in anything other than black and white, the best strategy is to divide everyone into two boxes (good guys and bad guys) and then use ad hominem to poison the well against anyone in one of those boxes.

 

[RandFan]

Don't forget this little bit of Lookame --

Georgie boy's little attention-seeking gem of his "celebrity boxing challenge" from last year...

How does a person exploit one's killing of another person? Hey, I killed someone and now I'm famous. Yeah!

 

[johnny karate]

He is asserting opinion, but he is also basing it on facts. His interpretation of Apperson's statement is not conclusive, but it is reasonable. And it is not in contradiction with public statements from the police. That they are not charging him with attempted murder does not mean they think it wasn't attempted murder, it could merely mean they don't think they can prove it in court, and so will only pursue lesser charges they are confident of.

Your rationalization has been noted.

And again, really enjoying all the special pleading for the benefit of Zimmerman.