• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Iraq War a Mistake

Travis said:
I still think the idea of taking down a horrible tyrant was a good one. The execution was terrible and on the whole the world would be better if we hadn't tried to do something I think was good in intention.
Click to expand...

I think the big problem was not enough thought was given to how the Iraqi people were going to react. And sadly Iraq history from the mid 50s to Saddam taking control told us exactly what would happen, just no body important was listening
 
ponderingturtle said:
9/11?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that it was weakness on the part of Bush and Cheney that led to 9/11? The first attack by Muslim extremists against the twin towers was in 1993. From there the attacks against America by radicals associated with or under the direction of Bin Laden only escalated. Sorry if I didn't get your meaning.

Timeline: Osama bin Laden, over the years
 
Travis said:
I still think the idea of taking down a horrible tyrant was a good one. The execution was terrible and on the whole the world would be better if we hadn't tried to do something I think was good in intention.
Click to expand...

Good intentions, noun. Cross reference 'road to hell'.
 
16.5 said:
Half of it.

Funny that Jeb gets all the criticisms when the fact is that the only Candidate who voted for the war was Hillary Clinton.
Click to expand...

Too bad you can't use that one anymore. Lindsey Graham is joining the fun.
 
RandFan said:
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that it was weakness on the part of Bush and Cheney that led to 9/11? The first attack by Muslim extremists against the twin towers was in 1993. From there the attacks against America by radicals associated with or under the direction of Bin Laden only escalated. Sorry if I didn't get your meaning.

Timeline: Osama bin Laden, over the years
Click to expand...

I was suggesting what their answer to such a question would be.
 
The Iraq War wasn't a mistake....it was a triumph! I'm making a note here, 'huge success', it's hard to oooooverstate my satisfaction...
 
RandFan said:
I changed my tune sometime around Katrina IIRC.

The Iraq War was a mistake. A big one.
Click to expand...

I was on the fence, so would not have gone, but once committed I supported it.

It was so amazingly successful at first, a meme developed that Democrats were terrified at future history, "What if this is a huge success for Bush?" As if future wars steamrollering things would occur, on top of political success.

I felt this bizarre -- is your position really "Oh noes! Their idea worked! How horrible!" NOT that it might be wrong eventually, as it was for both WMD finding, and the grotesque underestimation of nation building difficulties.

Rather, how awful the (apparent) success per se, "to our side". My mother-in-law actually called my wife to cry on her shoulder about the political fortunes of her beloved Democrats, she regurgitating to me what her mom said to her, verbatim from that new meme.

To wit, "What if Bush becomes a huge hero because of the (then apparently huge success)? Oh no!"

:boggled:


Well, the lesson of the difficulties of nation building are still being learned.
 
Last edited:
Travis said:
I still think the idea of taking down a horrible tyrant was a good one. The execution was terrible and on the whole the world would be better if we hadn't tried to do something I think was good in intention.
Click to expand...

By what earthly right has the USA to decide that a dictator deserves taking down? Do you have any idea how that sounds to people in other countries?

The war was an unmitigated disaster and to anyone with the wit to follow the events leading up to it rather than respond as gung-ho patriots it looked very much like the USA lashing out like a frustrated child having a temper tantrum and being quite willing to conflate 9/11, Bin Laden and any nasty characters, such as Saddam who got into their sights. The turmoil in that part of the world is a direct result of that mess and the aftermath of the invasion.

..and Bush in his leather jacket on board that ship announcing victory. How damned embarrassing.
 
I was against it during the run up to the invasion. Once it happened, I took the position of something like, "Well, okay, maybe the President knows something I don't, but there better damn well be some WMDs."

Of course, it wasn't long before it was apparent that he didn't and there wasn't.
 
Beerina said:
I was on the fence, so would not have gone, but once committed I supported it.

It was so amazingly successful at first, a meme developed that Democrats were terrified at future history, "What if this is a huge success for Bush?" As if future wars steamrollering things would occur, on top of political success.

I felt this bizarre -- is your position really "Oh noes! Their idea worked! How horrible!" NOT that it might be wrong eventually, as it was for both WMD finding, and the grotesque underestimation of nation building difficulties.

Rather, how awful the (apparent) success per se, "to our side". My mother-in-law actually called my wife to cry on her shoulder about the political fortunes of her beloved Democrats, she regurgitating to me what her mom said to her, verbatim from that new meme.

To wit, "What if Bush becomes a huge hero because of the (then apparently huge success)? Oh no!"

:boggled:


Well, the lesson of the difficulties of nation building are still being learned.
Click to expand...
Good post. :) I so wish it had turned out as hoped. Unlike the idiot Limbaugh who hoped Obama would fail I don't ever root for anyone or any program that would benefit Americans to fail. That's a nice plus for being an independent. You can root for your nation rather than the party.
 
Beerina said:
Well, the lesson of the difficulties of nation building are still being learned.
Click to expand...

They did not even get the basic concept of occupation right let alone nation building. Everything after the invasion was done on the basis of wishful thinking.

ETA: There were a few people in the army that knew what to do, but they were either sidelined or ignored.
 
Rum said:
By what earthly right has the USA to decide that a dictator deserves taking down? Do you have any idea how that sounds to people in other countries?

The war was an unmitigated disaster and to anyone with the wit to follow the events leading up to it rather than respond as gung-ho patriots it looked very much like the USA lashing out like a frustrated child having a temper tantrum and being quite willing to conflate 9/11, Bin Laden and any nasty characters, such as Saddam who got into their sights. The turmoil in that part of the world is a direct result of that mess and the aftermath of the invasion.

..and Bush in his leather jacket on board that ship announcing victory. How damned embarrassing.
Click to expand...

People have that right. I was among the people that thought this. I had a nice long list of leaders I considered horrible for a whole host of reasons. I never cared about the WMD's or any tenuous connection to September 11. I had been campaigning for an Iraq invasion since the Clinton administration. Go in, get him, scratch one off the list. It seemed so easy. I was peeved Clinton never did it and seized on the chance Bush would. It all might even had worked if the Bush administration had any clue on what to do after tanks rolled into Baghdad. But they clearly didn't. Iraq suffered. The world now suffers.

A giant mistake.
 
I don't know how many hours of analysis of the whole Iraq thing I listened to on various NPR programs, as well as interviews with Bush-administration defectors.

Still seems to me that the underlying motivation was the so-called "Neo-Con agenda" with the "taking down a dangerous dictator" as the pretext. (and of course, the conflation of that dictator with 9/11)

That was the notion that Iraq was ready and waiting to be freed of Saddam, and since they were essentially a "secular" country, there would be a brief spate of dancing in the streets...Followed by the rapid formation of a nice, US-friendly democracy which would be a shining example of same to the whole region. (and presumably, over years, that democratic model would be exported to other problematic countries)

That sounds great..... Alas that no one paid any attention whatever to the warnings from people who did in fact know better. I recall listening to an interview with Madelaine Albright pre-invasion. She rather neatly ticked off the problems that we would encounter.
Iraq was only "secular" in that Saddam had suppressed the warring religious factions, much as the Soviets had suppressed the factions in the Balkans.
Iraq had no sense of nationality; it was an artificially-constructed nation incorporating a number of different religious and tribal powers that all hated each other.

It's not that this information was not available; it was merely ignored, or in some cases shouted down. Same with the "intelligence". The administration was warned that some of their "sources" were self-serving individuals with an eye on taking power in a post-Saddam Iraq.... Again, largely ignored.

A great deal is now being accepted under the general category of "faulty intelligence", but from all the stuff I listened to it was much more...."We are going to war, find us some excuses."
I seem to recall that Bush made war-intention statements shortly after being elected.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
I'm sick of the media playing Gotcha Questions with candidates and then misreporting results. Even NPR seems to be implying Jeb's first answer, which was clearly an answer to the wrong question, was somehow a valid answer.

No mistake, his attention to detail was lacking when he answered, and that alone could be the story if the media hadn't collectively decided to spin it the other way.
Click to expand...

If he was clearly answering the wrong question why did it take a week and 3 or 4 attempts to answer the right question? Why are so many GOP candidates having trouble with this question? It's not a gotcha question, it's a tough question and an honest answer forces them to speak ill of a fellow republican.

What should outrage you is candidates that keep getting do-overs until they find the answer that gets them out of trouble instead of actually having convictions and beliefs.

I have to respect Rand Paul for the most honest answer, it would have been a mistake even if Saddam had WMD's.
 
C_Felix said:
Fixed it for you.
Click to expand...
Yes, the same misleading intelligentce the Clinton administration was using back in the late 90s when they made regime change their policy.

But who knows, maybe they falsified the intelligence then and started beating the war drums to distract the nation's attention from Bill's grab-assery with an intern.
 
Bogative said:
Yes, the same misleading intelligentce the Clinton administration was using back in the late 90s when they made regime change their policy..
Click to expand...

I don't know about regime change but it was very much the reason they gave for Operation Desert Fox.
 
Doubt said:
They did not even get the basic concept of occupation right let alone nation building. Everything after the invasion was done on the basis of wishful thinking.

ETA: There were a few people in the army that knew what to do, but they were either sidelined or ignored.
Click to expand...
Like Travis, you and I agree that the occupation after the fall of Baghdad was a complete disaster. Specifically, I blame Donald Rumsfeld. I distinctly remember him giving a television interview after "Mission Accomplished" where he was patting himself on the back because the military generals had come to him with a war plan and he told them to go back and start over because he believed it could be done faster, cheaper, with a smaller footprint and less troops.

At the time I thought he was some kind of military genius because it was working out so well, then it all turned to ****. If he would've went with the original number of troops first requested, there would have been no need for a surge four years later and tens of thousands of lives would've been saved.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom