Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

Bonassi says on November 3 his room was neat and tidy when he left and the duvet was pulled up over the pillows. After reading this I'm now firmly convinced Guede broke in downstairs as well because the duvet didn't move by itself. Now the question is how did he break-in because apparently the upstairs key which Meredith had was recovered. I was always skeptical of that claim but it does appear they found it. Soooo I'm now wondering if Guede stole a key to the downstairs aparment when he visited and spent the night there or on the next visit when he returned for the F1.

The guy is a low life thief and an opportunist. It'd be nothing to steal a key thinking it'd come in handy sometime he needed a place to burglarize.

This is great info. But where do you see text that makes you think Meredith's keys were found? If Guede used the keys Meredith had, why couldn't he also use it to get into the bedroom?

Did I miss something about Meredith's keys being found? I thought Hellman said they weren't found?

I also believed Guede was in the downstairs after the crime.

 

[carbonjam72]

As far as I know, this ticket is like the bleach receipts.

Except there doesn't seem to be an obvious, non-incriminating explanation.

 

[MichaelB]

This is great info. But where do you see text that makes you think Meredith's keys were found? If Guede used the keys Meredith had, why couldn't he also use it to get into the bedroom?

Did I miss something about Meredith's keys being found? I thought Hellman said they weren't found?

I also believed Guede was in the downstairs after the crime.

The key is listed as an item seized from the cottage search on November 6. Amanda's signature is on the document: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/cottage-search-1.pdf

POLICE HEADQUARTERS OF PERUGIA TEAM MOBILE
SUBJECT: Minutes of house search and seizure dependent on context:
KNOX Amanda Marie was born in Seattle (USA) en 09/07/1987, domiciled in Perugia in Via della Pergola nr.7
The year 2007 addi 06th of November, at 12.30 in the offices of the Flying Squad of Perugia. undersigned officers and agents of the Judicial Police V. Q.A. Domenico PROFAZIO, Sost. Comm. Monica NAPOLEONI, ISP / King Chief Mauro BIGINI, Sov / tea Stefano GUBBIOTTI, Ass / tea Mauro Barbadori and Ass / tea Zugarini Lorena, belonging to the office indicated in epigraph, acknowledge that it has proceeded, today at 09 , 40 or so, the search of the apartment on the first floor of the building located in this street Pergola nr.7. The act of PG, executed after the due accertarnenti Scientific Police, and it was necessary as part of investigations into the English town alromicidio KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara. The search extended to all rooms of the apartment (Java successful because inside the room occupied by the named object was found in it following material considered useful for the continuation of the investigation:

I. A diary green including some pages written in English;
9. A digital camera brand "EXILIM" gray;
3. A laptop brand "TOSHIBA" having serial number 75418110K;
4. A notebook containing some yellow pages written in English;
5. Keys of the apartment below (ground floor) at the entrance and in fact found in condos availability of the apartment searched;6. A large green notebook on the cover bearing the inscription "bluekover.com" containing some pages written in English and Italian

The material listed above is subject to seizure and temporarily detained at these offices for the necessary investigations and analysis, then pours transmitted corgi crime the local prosecutor available Of this AG
It is further recognized at the end of the search, which took place at 10.40 after and executed according to the law, was also seized in post ° .7>

 

[carbonjam72]

The key is listed as an item seized from the cottage search on November 6. Amanda's signature is on the document: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/cottage-search-1.pdf

POLICE HEADQUARTERS OF PERUGIA TEAM MOBILE
SUBJECT: Minutes of house search and seizure dependent on context:
KNOX Amanda Marie was born in Seattle (USA) en 09/07/1987, domiciled in Perugia in Via della Pergola nr.7
The year 2007 addi 06th of November, at 12.30 in the offices of the Flying Squad of Perugia. undersigned officers and agents of the Judicial Police V. Q.A. Domenico PROFAZIO, Sost. Comm. Monica NAPOLEONI, ISP / King Chief Mauro BIGINI, Sov / tea Stefano GUBBIOTTI, Ass / tea Mauro Barbadori and Ass / tea Zugarini Lorena, belonging to the office indicated in epigraph, acknowledge that it has proceeded, today at 09 , 40 or so, the search of the apartment on the first floor of the building located in this street Pergola nr.7. The act of PG, executed after the due accertarnenti Scientific Police, and it was necessary as part of investigations into the English town alromicidio KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara. The search extended to all rooms of the apartment (Java successful because inside the room occupied by the named object was found in it following material considered useful for the continuation of the investigation:

I. A diary green including some pages written in English;
9. A digital camera brand "EXILIM" gray;
3. A laptop brand "TOSHIBA" having serial number 75418110K;
4. A notebook containing some yellow pages written in English;
5. Keys of the apartment below (ground floor) at the entrance and in fact found in condos availability of the apartment searched;6. A large green notebook on the cover bearing the inscription "bluekover.com" containing some pages written in English and Italian

The material listed above is subject to seizure and temporarily detained at these offices for the necessary investigations and analysis, then pours transmitted corgi crime the local prosecutor available Of this AG
It is further recognized at the end of the search, which took place at 10.40 after and executed according to the law, was also seized in post ° .7>

Ok, so this is the set of keys Meredith's boyfriend gave her for the weekend?

And to be clear, Meredith's keys were never found?

If we agree Rudy was downstairs, and did not break in (destructively), then by what means did he gain entry, if not with a key?

 

[MichaelB]

Ok, so this is the set of keys Meredith's boyfriend gave her for the weekend?

And to be clear, Meredith's keys were never found?

If we agree Rudy was downstairs, and did not break in (destructively), then by what means did he gain entry, if not with a key?

I dunno. That's why I suggested he might have stolen another key from the downstairs apartment when he visited the night he slept on the toilet or returned for the F1.

There's something in one of the other witness statements saying they left a spare key to the apartment hanging somewhere downstairs. Maybe that's the one they gave to Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

Wasn't this all about trying to implicate Amanda? A story purporting to be about Amanda and Guede, subsequently abandoned when the timeline didn't fit? Weren't the guilters going on about this for a while?

Not just the PGP but also the tab media. It was clearly Amanda at first. I think it was something besides the timeline that ended it.

 

[carbonjam72]

I'm intrigued

I dunno. That's why I suggested he might have stolen another key from the downstairs apartment when he visited the night he slept on the toilet or returned for the F1.

There's something in one of the other witness statements saying they left a spare key to the apartment hanging somewhere downstairs. Maybe that's the one they gave to Meredith.

Didn't Meredith also need a key to the boyfriend's locked pot plant closet?

Doesn't the 'Rudy stole the downstairs key' seem a bit excessive?

It may well be true though. Seeing the cottage empty upstairs, Rudy could have gone for the double header burglary to take advantage of the upstairs finding no one home, and relying on his 'rock through the window resident alarm'.

But Rudy's previous choice of burglaries and settings is interesting. He seems to have made a very specific effort to make sure people weren't there.

- His old lady neighbor he kew would be away -
- the Perugian law office on a weekend -
- the Milan Nusery school on a weekend -
- the cottage where all 4 downstairs and 2 of 4 upstairs would likely be away.

The more I think of this scenario you suggest, the more I like it.

The only separate domicile Rudy COULD have had direct information from the residents that they would all be away that weekend, was the downstairs apartment. Seeing the upstairs vacant that night, could have been a crime of convenience, and a secondary target.
- Unanswered questions regarding the art show ticket (DNA or finger print tested?).
- Any missing clothes from downstairs.
- What keys accounted for or not?
- missing DNA profiles from downstairs
- missing cats -
- Rudy's full & honest confession -

 

[acbytesla]

Staged break ins are not unusual and proving forensically could be impossible if the staging were done well. If they had staged it by throwing a rock from the parking area and then went through some stuff what exactly would the police do to prove it was staged? What proof did Rudi leave behind that proves he broke in?

Citation please. I'd bet that there is little more than anecdotal evidence available to support this contention. In fact, my bet is that staging a crime scene is in fact extremely rare and are much more likely the figment of over imaginative investigators and crime novelists.

 

[carbonjam72]

Citation please. I'd bet that there is little more than anecdotal evidence available to support this contention. In fact, my bet is that staging a crime scene is in fact extremely rare and are much more likely the figment of over imaginative investigators and crime novelists.

Happens a lot on Columbo. They criminals never seem to learn that they can't outsmart the master American detective (of Italian descent).

(And Columbo solved all of his cases without even using DNA!)

 

[acbytesla]

Happens a lot on Columbo. They criminals never seem to learn that they can't outsmart the master American detective (of Italian descent).

(And Columbo solved all of his cases without even using DNA!)

Exactly, and Perry Mason always got the criminals to break down or mess up on the witness stand. So much of law enforcement is totally misunderstood by the public. DNA and fingerprint results that are available in minutes. Facial recognition cracking case after case. The CSI shows where lab rats are there breaking down the doors of suspects.

While I am sure that sometimes killers might try and leave clues that distract investigators, my bet is that most often they are too much in a panic to ever do this.

 

[Grinder]

Citation please. I'd bet that there is little more than anecdotal evidence available to support this contention. In fact, my bet is that staging a crime scene is in fact extremely rare and are much more likely the figment of over imaginative investigators and crime novelists.

Some things are just known to the elite word smiths like the definition of framing

Here's something a bit better than the true-crime-novels you cite

Crime Scene Staging
Sometimes a perpetrator will attempt to confuse the forensic investigators by staging a crime scene. This involves altering the scene to try to disguise what really happened. When reconstructing the crime scene, the investigating team must always be on the lookout for staging. Typically, evidence or bodies will be moved, or there will be signs of a break-in that did not actually happen.

A crime scene is often staged to make a murder appear like an accident or suicide. In historical cases, assailants have carefully placed a gun in the victim's hand, but the nature of the victim's wounds were found not consistent with being self-inflicted. A murderer may move a body into the bathroom and pretend the victim fell when he or she got out of the bath or shower. Removing bloodstains with a cleanser like bleach is also not uncommon. However, invisible traces often remain which can be subjected to forensic analysis.

Staging a burglary on top of a murder is a common form of crime scene staging; the assailant may break a lock or a window, turn over drawers, and remove valuable items. Staged burglaries may also be set up as part of an insurance fraud where the owner pretends a valuable item has been stolen when he has actually removed it himself. Should they leave trace evidence from their own bodies or clothing at the break-in site, with no evidence present from the supposed robber, then the story will be called into question.​

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3448300158.html

No doubt insurance fraud is the most common.

ETA- VIII. STAGED BURGLARIES

A. A simulated or staged crime scene is one that an offender has contrived or altered to mislead investigative efforts.

B. Staging a crime necessarily involves adding, moving, or removing evidence from a crime scene with the hope that the criminal investigator will not uncover the truth of events.

C. Research on staged crimes has been limited; however a study published in 2000 on this subject found that:

1. Crime scenes were most commonly staged to conceal homicides or homicide related activity.

2. Burglary was staged in 52% of the cases investigated.

3. The most commonly altered element at staged crime scenes was a window left open or purposefully damaged (48%).

4. An astonishing 20% of the cases studied involved a current or former law enforcement officer as the actual perpetrator.

I'm surprised no one has speculated that the police staged it

That enough Tesla?

 

[Antony]

Exactly, and Perry Mason always got the criminals to break down or mess up on the witness stand. So much of law enforcement is totally misunderstood by the public. DNA and fingerprint results that are available in minutes. Facial recognition cracking case after case. The CSI shows where lab rats are there breaking down the doors of suspects.

Crime fiction and TV drama has a lot to answer for IMO. Part of the illusion is that law enforcement officers always act in good faith - even when they are trumped by the hero detective for the solution to the crime. But of course, all too often the police and the courts are part of the problem, rather than being the solution - and it's when they try to be too clever, and emulate the TV detective, that some of the worst abuses occur.

 

[acbytesla]

Some things are just known to the elite word smiths like the definition of framing

Here's something a bit better than the true-crime-novels you cite

Crime Scene Staging
Sometimes a perpetrator will attempt to confuse the forensic investigators by staging a crime scene. This involves altering the scene to try to disguise what really happened. When reconstructing the crime scene, the investigating team must always be on the lookout for staging. Typically, evidence or bodies will be moved, or there will be signs of a break-in that did not actually happen.

A crime scene is often staged to make a murder appear like an accident or suicide. In historical cases, assailants have carefully placed a gun in the victim's hand, but the nature of the victim's wounds were found not consistent with being self-inflicted. A murderer may move a body into the bathroom and pretend the victim fell when he or she got out of the bath or shower. Removing bloodstains with a cleanser like bleach is also not uncommon. However, invisible traces often remain which can be subjected to forensic analysis.

Staging a burglary on top of a murder is a common form of crime scene staging; the assailant may break a lock or a window, turn over drawers, and remove valuable items. Staged burglaries may also be set up as part of an insurance fraud where the owner pretends a valuable item has been stolen when he has actually removed it himself. Should they leave trace evidence from their own bodies or clothing at the break-in site, with no evidence present from the supposed robber, then the story will be called into question.​

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3448300158.html

No doubt insurance fraud is the most common.

But this is not really evidence Grinder. No more than Vixen's use of Richard Owen's articles in The Times. I mean real evidence.

 

[Bill Williams]

Crime fiction and TV drama has a lot to answer for IMO. Part of the illusion is that law enforcement officers always act in good faith - even when they are trumped by the hero detective for the solution to the crime. But of course, all too often the police and the courts are part of the problem, rather than being the solution - and it's when they try to be too clever, and emulate the TV detective, that some of the worst abuses occur.

I dunno. I wish I could remember which crime show it was, but it was in the 1990s.

One episode covered how even the heroes of the show, the cops, got locked into what has been called in this thread, "suspect-centric investigations", and "myopic" collection of evidence.... IIRC it was a way of writing out of the show the character of the lead detective on the case.

I remember the old, wizened cop who at the meetings always said, "Let's not narrow things too quickly, folks, that's when you miss things."

And, of course, the dénouement was showing how the old guy was right; and the lead detective took the fall and was written out. They'd settled in too quickly on one suspect, and developed their evidence only with that suspect in mind, and ignored other obvious leads as a result.

There was also an episode of Criminal Minds where they were putting a guy through the wringer at interrogation - Criminal Minds often demonstrates how there really are no rules in interrogation, really.... you can lie, cheat, misdirect, play good-cop, bad cop.....

But this one after a grilling the guy finally confesses. The upshot is that the FBI guy leans over and unshakles him and says he can go. The alleged-perp is confused, "I just confessed!"

"Ya, but we're now trained in recognizing false confessions. You know nothing of this crime except that you want to protect someone with a false confession - that's what we're now interested in."

Good crime fiction and TV stuff shows it like it is; and is not afraid to show its characters as flawed, or smooth over the tremendous potential for abuse.

 

[Grinder]

But this is not really evidence Grinder. No more than Vixen's use of Richard Owen's articles in The Times. I mean real evidence.

Read the ETA. Way better evidence than your Rudi burned the neighbors house and killed the cat.

Insurance frauds often involve staging.

ETA Oh and Tesla how about providing what would have been proof of staging in our case. Had the kids thrown a rock from the parking area why wouldn't it be just like a real break in?

IIRC that's where this line started. I think someone implied they are very rare so how about proving that.

 

[codyjuneau]

Yes, I think you're right. Bagels found the form of words elsewhere too. I was pretty sure it had nothing to do with Amanda and Meredith, but wondered if it might have been a language exercise from Romanelli or Mezzetti, or a genuinely nasty note from some rejected guy to one of the four female occupants.

But it now appears most likely to be a joke, as you say.

.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Offensive-Humorous-Slogan-Festival-T-Shirt/dp/B00OHHLJW0

Cody
.

 

[Bill Williams]

Read the ETA. Way better evidence than your Rudi burned the neighbors house and killed the cat.

Insurance frauds often involve staging.

ETA Oh and Tesla how about providing what would have been proof of staging in our case. Had the kids thrown a rock from the parking area why wouldn't it be just like a real break in?

IIRC that's where this line started. I think someone implied they are very rare so how about proving that.

That is the strange thing about it all. It's not like there had ever been a comprehensive investigation of this aspect of what was alleged.

There's Battistelli's comment, which I agree Grinder, more than likely IS a comment on his views on this being a staging, but the proof of that is hopelessly lost in the events which transpired ten-fifteen minutes later.

Other than that, what? Observations from the crack investigators, one of whom bragged later that he'd solved the crime through behavioural observation, even before the forensics came in.

That seemed to be the flaw in the system in Italy, where the observations and opinions of investigators and PM's were given evidentiary weight as-if there was forensics to back them up, even if there were not.

How did you put it? Three compatibilities equals a judicial fact?

Thank goodness the Italian Supreme Court eventually saw this for what it was. A flawed investigation, and wrongful preliminary-convictions from lower courts. In that sense, the Italian system which can correct flawed findings of fact (without reversing the burden of proof, cf. ISC 2013) is superior to those in our parts of the world, where there is only one chance, really, to compose "the record" of facts, and all appeals from that point are on articles of law - or new evidence.

It's just that it took so damn long!

 

[Numbers]

But this is not really evidence Grinder. No more than Vixen's use of Richard Owen's articles in The Times. I mean real evidence.

More information (not evidence) from http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3448300158.html

It takes a particular type of criminal to set up a successful staging. Sometimes the forensic psychologist can help with a profile of a suspect. A man who kills his wife in a fit of jealousy, for instance, and then tries to make it look like a burglary can give himself away unless he is calculating and careful. Crimes of passion often involve excessive violence, like multiple stabbings or gunshots. Most burglars are opportunists and will kill only if they panic. Such murders will generally not be as violent as those where anger against the victim is the motive. When a victim has died in a violent manner and it looks as if the motive is burglary, the investigator always considers the possibility that staging has taken place.

So it seems that the Italian police and prosecutor may have read this paragraph closely (bolded emphasis added).

Certainly there are US cases in which there was a murder of a spouse or partner apparently during a home invasion or burglary, and the surviving spouse has been accused of staging the home invasion or burglary as a cover-up of the murder. Marital difficulties or anticipated divorce may be brought forward as a motive.

I don't have statistics on the frequency of such cases, but here is an example: COMMONWEALTH {of Massachusetts} VS. HENRY R. BASCH. 386 Mass. 620, February 3, 1982 - June 28, 1982, Norfolk County. {This case was reversed on appeal and sent back for retrial for "reversible error": the State medical examiner had two different TODs, one with a wider range that could have indicated reasonable doubt, another which did not. The lower court had not allowed the defense to introduce the wider range TOD as evidence.} Source: http://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/supreme-court/volumes/386/386mass620.html

ETA: Certainly there are cases in the US where there appears to have been a spousal/partner murder and an attempted cover-up. But usually there are relationship difficulties and/or insurance benefits that provide motivation in such cases. It is interesting that the Italian police and prosecution incorporated elements of this kind of motivation (sexual jealousy, toilet cleaning, theft of rent cash) into their accusations against Knox.

 

[acbytesla]

Read the ETA. Way better evidence than your Rudi burned the neighbors house and killed the cat.

Insurance frauds often involve staging.

ETA Oh and Tesla how about providing what would have been proof of staging in our case. Had the kids thrown a rock from the parking area why wouldn't it be just like a real break in?

IIRC that's where this line started. I think someone implied they are very rare so how about proving that.

I guess the question is "what is rare". 1 in 10? 20? 30? 100? I have little doubt that occasionally there is staging of a crime scene. Just that there seems to be an absence of empirical evidence. I'm convinced that detectives often find themselves hypnotized by their own mistaken theories.

 

[carbonjam72]

Read the ETA. Way better evidence than your Rudi burned the neighbors house and killed the cat.

Insurance frauds often involve staging.

ETA Oh and Tesla how about providing what would have been proof of staging in our case. Had the kids thrown a rock from the parking area why wouldn't it be just like a real break in?

IIRC that's where this line started. I think someone implied they are very rare so how about proving that.

Hey G, I understand there's been some resistance to the attribution to Rudy of his neighbors burglary, feast & burning and cat death job. Also over details of Christian T (?) being threatened by Rudy in a burglary, and details of Rudy's Milan burglary.

It's one thing to say you're not sure it's true. But are you sugfesting the reporting of Dempsey, Burleigh, or graham is false?

Are you saying things they reported are false? Who bears the burden of proof, in your view?