Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Strozzi]

Yes, that's a checkmate point, I think. I've been trying to think of a counter move. All this selective cleaning and the washing machine, yet we know that a guilty Amanda couldn't have merely overlooked the bathroom blood because she phoned Romanelli and told her about it. So why, as you point out, didn't she just wipe it down, minimally, even if not bleach it? Wouldn't have taken five minutes, yet she was on her hands and knees with a lamp, apparently, looking for stuff the human eye can't see.

Didn't Massei conclude that Amanda was naked while doing all this? Or was that just wishful thinking as part of Mignini's sexual perversion?

 

[Grinder]

You have posed some interesting points. But I think there remains the need for some objective evidence to establish staging, especially to support Giobbi's testimony that there was glass on top of the clothes. If that statement were untrue, and Giobbi knew it was untrue (rather than his reporting something someone told him, which from my reading I do not recall he said), wouldn't that be perjury (at least in the US)? And perjury intended to prejudice the case against the defendants?

If Giobbi said he saw glass on top of the clothes but he wasn't there or didn't see glass on top that would be perjury but he said there was glass on top of the clothes that wouldn't be perjury if he believed that to be the case. I would like to point out that clothing like sweaters would shed all their glass if moved.

[quote[
1. Do you have any citation(s) regarding the frequency of staged break-ins (in Italy preferably, or the US)? I would have thought such stagings in the US are rare; I do know of cases where break-ins to steal or to harm persons have occurred.[/quote]

No citations at hand howver in the past I've Google it and it is well covered. Insurance fraud is most likely the biggest single category. The old someone (one-armed man) broke in and killed my wife seems a story heard more than a few times.

2. Did the police or prosecutor make some claim that the window breakage was actually done with the window swung open to the inside? (I vaguely recall some discussion on ISF/JREF on this with Platonov and/or Mach.) Wouldn't that have a detectable effect on the glass fragment spray pattern?

Yes IIRC that was one of their theories. I would think it would have an impact an IIRC the PGP came up with the kids moving glass.

3. If the rock had been thrown from outside and then the room somewhat tossed, how indeed could there be evidence of staging different than that in a real break-in? That would suggest that the evidence was solely the opinion of the police - and even perhaps based, as in my hypothesis, on the police assuming Amanda was a suspect, and therefore the break-in was staged.

It was also based on Raf's "nothing was stolen" Thing did add the glass on top and that no thief would leave without stealing. I don't agree with them on the last point.

4. There apparently was a blood stain associated with the break-in. I am not clear on the details, but it may have been on the rock or on some other item. This stain apparently did not yield a reported DNA profile. This other bit of evidence was a reported glass fragment on a blood stain (Meredith's, most likely?) on the floor in the murder room. I am uncertain that any of this, with the information available, directly ties to Rudy, or to anyone else specifically, although the glass fragment in the murder room suggests to me that the person who broke in had been in Filomena's room after the window was broken and then, at some point, went to the murder room. If the glass shard was actually found in Rudy's shoe print in blood, that IMO would be telling.

IIRC it was on the glass and didn't test for DNA. Rose knows this stuff. Chris and Platonov may have said UV could destroy DNA in the window. Tested positive for blood. Pretty think the same as you on this. There could have been glass in a footprint of Rudi but I suppose he could have stepped in after the murder and returned except he said the window wasn't broken.

 

[Grinder]

But that is exactly my point. There is actually no way to recover, even by asking Battistelli, what his thoughts were in the short time between his assessment of Filomena's room and the grisly discovery.

Unless Follain wrote it.

If I were a betting man, which I am actually!, I would agree with the overall assessment. It's just that if the genius detectives had settled upon an, "it was an interrupted burglary, interrupted by the poor woman's return home," my bet would be that Battistelli would have testified at trial, 18 months later, that that was what he initially thought, too.

You're a poor man right?

Human memory is plastic and suggestible. (Look closely at your screen, your eyelids are getting heavy.....)

Bill it is the best information available. They thought from very early on that it was staged.

 

[Kauffer]

But that is exactly my point. There is actually no way to recover, even by asking Battistelli, what his thoughts were in the short time between his assessment of Filomena's room and the grisly discovery.

If I were a betting man, which I am actually!, I would agree with the overall assessment. It's just that if the genius detectives had settled upon an, "it was an interrupted burglary, interrupted by the poor woman's return home," my bet would be that Battistelli would have testified at trial, 18 months later, that that was what he initially thought, too.

Human memory is plastic and suggestible. (Look closely at your screen, your eyelids are getting heavy.....)

All I can add Bill, is this passage from HB, page 30: Raffaele writes:

"They agreed it was strange no valuables had been taken. In fact Battistelli...was already formulating a theory that the break-in was staged".

Battistelli's recollection of his stating at the cottage to Raffaele that it wasn't a burglary gives me reason not to believe there was much possibility of his thinking along the lines you suggest, because it's a remembrance of a specific contemporaneous thought before the body was discovered.

Of course what we don't know, and really can never know, are the details of any conversations which probably took place between the postale police, Profazio and Mignini, on site. They could easily have imprinted on each other.

Nevertheless, it seems very clear that shortly after the arrival of Profazio, they'd all settled on the staging being a fact and that already they could between them, give multiple reasons for this belief.

When did the postales leave the scene? Is this known?

 

[katy_did]

The thing is that Battistelli thinking it was strange that nothing had been stolen happened before Meredith's body had been discovered, so it WAS actually strange that someone had broken in and nothing had been stolen. That doesn't mean to say he had the fully-formed thought that the burglary was staged at that point. But in hindsight, naturally he's going to go back to that first thought he had, about it being strange nothing had been stolen, and turn it into evidence against Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Numbers]

All I can add Bill, is this passage from HB, page 30: Raffaele writes:

"They agreed it was strange no valuables had been taken. In fact Battistelli...was already formulating a theory that the break-in was staged".

Battistelli's recollection of his stating at the cottage to Raffaele that it wasn't a burglary gives me reason not to believe there was much possibility of his thinking along the lines you suggest, because it's a remembrance of a specific contemporaneous thought before the body was discovered.

Of course what we don't know, and really can never know, are the details of any conversations which probably took place between the postale police, Profazio and Mignini, on site. They could easily have imprinted on each other.

Nevertheless, it seems very clear that shortly after the arrival of Profazio, they'd all settled on the staging being a fact and that already they could between them, give multiple reasons for this belief.

When did the postales leave the scene? Is this known?

Battistelli's statement may have been either accepted as indication of a staged break-in, or it might have fitted into ideas that Mignini, Giobbi, Profazio, and Napoleoni had also developed, perhaps for other reasons.

There does not seem to have been any effort by the police to examine the break-in forensically.

The defense presented a forensic expert who claimed the break-in could be shown not to be staged as the prosecution claimed, except there was an issue about whether or not the outside shutters were open. Of course, the person who intended to throw the rock through the window could open those shutters, as established by Hendry.

Here is an excerpt from http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7995762

Defense Witness Says Amanda Knox Did Not Break Window
ROME, July 3, 2009
By ANN WISE

Francesco Pasquali, a retired forensic police officer hired as a consultant by Sollecito's defense, presented a video in court that included three different scenarios showing how the rock could have been thrown from the outside to break the window, located 13 feet off the ground.

According to Pasquali, the rock was thrown from a terrace across from the window, making the glass "explode" on the inside and spreading glass fragments everywhere on the inside and the outside of the windowsill.

Pasquali said that he had re-created the same conditions that were found in Romanelli's room at the time of the break-in. Pasquali said he constructed a window of the same size, with the same paint and the same type of glass, and threw the rock through it into a room with the same characteristics as Romanelli's room. Two video cameras -- one inside and one outside -- filmed the rock being thrown through the glass.

By analyzing the trajectory of the rock and the projection of the glass shards, Pasquali said he could "exclude that the glass could have been broken from the inside."

Prosecutors, however, contend that shutters outside the window could have prevented a rock from breaking it.

An English translation of Pasquali's testimony is available at www.amandaknoxcase.com.

 

[Bill Williams]

The thing is that Battistelli thinking it was strange that nothing had been stolen happened before Meredith's body had been discovered, so it WAS actually strange that someone had broken in and nothing had been stolen. That doesn't mean to say he had the fully-formed thought that the burglary was staged at that point. But in hindsight, naturally he's going to go back to that first thought he had, about it being strange nothing had been stolen, and turn it into evidence against Amanda and Raffaele.

This is a far better way of saying it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Unless Follain wrote it.

John Follain in, "A Death in Italy", is at his weaselly best on this point. Regardless of the sparks which fly between you on me on the issue of True Crime as a genre, this is one where Follain actually does insert his bias into a narrative he claims is free from it.

"I don't think this is a robbery, it looks more like a put up job to me," Battistelli said.

Amanda and Raffaele said nothing​

The bit about, "Amanda and Raffaele said nothing," is the weaseliest of all the weaselly statements Follain writes. Follain is inserting the later false-determination of a staging, full-throttle into what can only be seen as invented dialogue....

..... which includes that remarkably subtle, incriminating, "Amanda and Raffaele said nothing," which is supposed to signal that they, in fact, DO know what's going on in the room.

You're a poor man right?

I'm Owe-for-everything in my bets on judicial outcomes.

Bill it is the best information available. They thought from very early on that it was staged.

I agree with the former, but do not concede that it automatically means the latter.

 

[Kauffer]

An angry note on the fridge?

Take a look at this:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0028.jpg

Zoom in to the yellow note on the fridge. It's written in English. Part of it appears to read as follows:

"Never before have I met anyone with as many problems as you.
You have my deepest sympathy.
**** off and (stop?) bothering me!"

There are two other notes on the fridge in this picture, which look like they're in Italian. It's not clear to me if they're in the same hand.

In the next picture, we can see there are a total of nine notes on the fridge. One of them, on the left of the freezer section, is very small.

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0029.jpg

What's all this about? Who wrote the angry note and to whom?

 

[bagels]

Take a look at this:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0028.jpg

Zoom in to the yellow note on the fridge. It's written in English. Part of it appears to read as follows:

"Never before have I met anyone with as many problems as you.
You have my deepest sympathy.
**** off and (stop?) bothering me!"

There are two other notes on the fridge in this picture, which look like they're in Italian. It's not clear to me if they're in the same hand.

In the next picture, we can see there are a total of eight notes on the fridge.

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0029.jpg

What's all this about? Who wrote the angry note and to whom?

I googled it and exact phrases and variations on it seem to pop up on alt/punk sites and is used on t-shirts. It's probably decoration that goes with the pot leaf.

 

[Dan O.]

Forget the Washing Machine.

You all should be discussing the Mop instead.

Someday, the Mop will speak!

In a recent post I linked to a Nov. 11 Italian news article. The third photo in the album associated with that article has a very clear image of the mop in a bucket in front of the cottage.

Previously, I had tried to analize the grainy photos that were available and had determined that the object was a plastic crate. I now see that it is a crate and the mop bucket is inside of it.

Filomena also mentioned this mop in her testimony and says something to the effect that it is covered with feces.

 

[Dan O.]

...

Is there any objective evidence that would tend to contradict the suspect of convenience hypothesis, such as objective evidence that could have led the police to believe that the break-in was "staged"? The police AFAIK did not do forensic work to establish this staging - am I missing some information on this? (One would think a "staged" break-in being unusual, it would be necessary for police to demonstrate forensically that it had indeed been staged.)

There is a series of photographs of that window and the latches on that window. One photo even shows the outer shutters pulled all the way closed and latched. A subsequent photo often referenced by guilters shows the glass lined up in the sill as if the outer shutters had been closed.

The photos show a scene consistent with a breakin.

 

[Dan O.]

Vixen has not thought of asking herself: why did none of the killer points that were leaked to Richard Owen make it to the trial?

Due to budget cuts the police could not afford to make copies of the evidence leaked to journalists.

 

[carbonjam72]

red herrings

Take a look at this:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0028.jpg

Zoom in to the yellow note on the fridge. It's written in English. Part of it appears to read as follows:

"Never before have I met anyone with as many problems as you.
You have my deepest sympathy.
**** off and (stop?) bothering me!"

There are two other notes on the fridge in this picture, which look like they're in Italian. It's not clear to me if they're in the same hand.

In the next picture, we can see there are a total of nine notes on the fridge. One of them, on the left of the freezer section, is very small.

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0029.jpg

What's all this about? Who wrote the angry note and to whom?

Its the yellow note, and I think the first sentence reads; "Your story has only hardened my heart".

But its blurry and thats my best guess.

It may be fun to speculate in guillter paradise, but don't we know everything was fine at the cottage, until Rudy Guede decided to break-in and make himself at home?

 

[Grinder]

Bill where Follain says the kids said nothing is obviously as accurate as his accounts of what the police said and were thinking on the night of the 5th.

When you provide material from Massei or other official documents including witness statements you expect that to carry the day and trump a journalist. Yet when a witnesses testimony doesn't support your view you won't accept it.

Obviously a staged burglary can look just like a real one. It is interesting that neither ear witness nor anyone else in Briar's echo chamber heard the glass breaking no matter how it was done. The later the more likely it would be heard I would think.

 

[Desert Fox]

The "suspect of convenience" factor was one of 2 things (the other was the coerced false confession) that convinced me right at the beginning that this was a railroad job. It's a recurring feature in miscarriages of justice, that when police are seeking to "solve" a crime the easy way, it's people right under their noses who are at greatest risk.

Think Lindy Chamberlain, Kate McCann, Shrien Diwani. Not only do they suffer horrible personal tragedy, they then find themselves fighting for their freedom as a result - and even when the police and courts back off, their names are permanently vilified among a weird cult of morbid individuals.

Two other good ones are David Camm, who spent over a decade in prison due to the deaths of his family, and Cameron Todd Willingham, who was executed because of the death of his children. These have got to really twist the knife.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

In a recent post I linked to a Nov. 11 Italian news article. The third photo in the album associated with that article has a very clear image of the mop in a bucket in front of the cottage.

Previously, I had tried to analize the grainy photos that were available and had determined that the object was a plastic crate. I now see that it is a crate and the mop bucket is inside of it.

Filomena also mentioned this mop in her testimony and says something to the effect that it is covered with feces.

Were you involved in the online discussion back in 2008? People were obsessed with the mop and the washing machine, believing they would prove that someone cleaned up the crime scene after the murder. They cooked up the most outlandish theories involving these items.

Then the trial rolled around, and nothing came of their speculation, so they dropped it.

Now Vixen is back on the washing machine. I'm wondering why she doesn't bring up the mop.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Take a look at this:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0028.jpg

Zoom in to the yellow note on the fridge. It's written in English. Part of it appears to read as follows:

"Never before have I met anyone with as many problems as you.
You have my deepest sympathy.
**** off and (stop?) bothering me!"

There are two other notes on the fridge in this picture, which look like they're in Italian. It's not clear to me if they're in the same hand.

In the next picture, we can see there are a total of nine notes on the fridge. One of them, on the left of the freezer section, is very small.

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/Crime Scene Photos November 2-3/dsc_0029.jpg

What's all this about? Who wrote the angry note and to whom?

That was the one case-related question I asked Amanda when I first met her in 2010. It didn't look like her writing, but I wanted to have an answer ready if the subject ever came up, which it did not. She told me she thought either Filomena or Laura penned the notes, as part of the decorative material attached to the refrigerator.

 

[Samson]

That was the one case-related question I asked Amanda when I first met her in 2010. It didn't look like her writing, but I wanted to have an answer ready if the subject ever came up, which it did not. She told me she thought either Filomena or Laura penned the notes, as part of the decorative material attached to the refrigerator.

She was in jail. Was this meeting easy to have?

 

[MichaelB]

Stefano says in his November 3 deposition that his bedroom was neat and tidy with the duvet pulled up over the pillows when he left. So are we all in agreement there's little doubt at all someone Guede was in the downstairs apartment and in his bedroom because the duvet didn't move by itself?

Original Italian: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2007-11-03-Witness-deposition-Bonassi.pdf

Questura di Perugia Squadra Mobile Area Affari Generali
OGGETTO: Verbale di sommarie informazioni da persona informata sui fatti rese da: BONASSI Stefano Dalio gia in altri atti generalizzato.
Il 03 novembre alle ore 21.40 , negli uffici della Squadra Mobile della Questura di Perugia. Innanzi ai sottoscritti ufficiali di P.G. VQA Domenico Giacinto Profazio, V.Q.A. GIOBBI Edgard❑ e Sost. Comm. Monica NAPOLEONI 6 presente it nominato in oggetto ii quale, ad integrazione delle dichiarazioni rese Teri 2 novembre presso questi Uffici, in merit❑ ai fatti per cui e indagine, dichiara quanto segue: A.D.R. Sono generalmente disordinato, pere prima di partire avevo messo perfettamente a posto la mia stanza perche avevamo riordinato tuna la casa. II piumone lo avevo pet6 lasciato appoggiato sopra i due cuscini del letto per evitare the i cuscini si impolverassero. A.D.R. a volte ho fatto qualche canna insieme ai miei coinquilini ma non use altre sostanze stupefacenti. A.D.R. ho appeso in camera l'articolo sull' LSD solo perche l'ho trovato interessante ed 6 scritto da uno scienziato famoso A.D.R. Riccardo invece e un tipo solitamente precis❑ ed ordinato ma non so dire se ha lasciato la sua stanza pulita ❑ meno in quanta stavo dormendo e l'ha lasciata chiusa a chiave. A.D.R. La sala e prevalentemente usata da Riccardo e a volte anche dagli altri, io solitamente sto in camera mia perche spesso viene a trovarmi la mia ragazza. A.D.R. Il bagno piccolo e usato da tutti per fare la doccia e di solito lasciamo la finestra aperta per far asciugare it piano doccia. A.D.R. Prima di partire avendo lavato le Ienzuola dei nostri letti, le mie erano blu, le abbiamo stese in sala dove abbiamo predisposto tre corde. Non so cosa dire circa la federa blu sporca di sangue perche io l'ho lasciata appesa e pulita. A.D.R. Abbiamo due gatti. Quell❑ nero lo teniamo in casa, l'altro 6 pift randagio e resta fuori. Quello nero si e fatto male mi sembra venerdi 26 ottobre, si 6 ferito all'orecchio destro. Ricordo che mentre mangiava, sotto it lavandino del bagno piccolo ha perso molto sangue perche scuoteva la testa. Le chiavi di casa mia le aveva Meredith in questi giomi. A.D.R. Non so come spiegare le tracce di sangue sopra iI mio piumone dato che la mia porta era chiusa a chiave cosi come la finestra. Anche Riccardo aveva chiuso tutto. A.D.R. In sala, sopra la placca dell'interruttore delle luci, non ricordo di aver notato chiazze di sangue. A.D.R. Sia Meredith che le altre ragazze non aprivano la porta a sconosciuti. Chiudevano sempre a mandate perche la maniglia era rotta_ A.D.R. Riccardo e un tipo strano ed io non ci vado d'accordo. Nessuno di not andava d'accordo con lui perche era molto❑ egoista e per dispetto gli abbiamo urinato dalla finestra destro la camera quando lui non c'era. II Bonassi viene reso edotto del facto che, su delega dell'A.G. competente, in quality di testimone vincolato al segreto, alto scopo di non pregiudicare le indagini incorso. F.L.C.S.

Google translation:

Police of Perugia Flying Squad General Affairs Area
SUBJECT: Minutes of summary information to a person informed of the facts made by: Stefano BONASSI Dalio already widespread in other acts.
On 03 November at 21:40, in the offices of the Flying Squad of the Police of Perugia. Before the undersigned officers of the Judicial Police VQA Domenico Giacinto Profazio, V.Q.A. GIOBBI Edgard❑ and Sost. Comm. Monica NAPOLEONI 6 ii present it appointed in question which, in addition to the statements made Teri November 2 at these offices, in merit❑ the facts for which investigation and declares the following: ADR They are generally messy, pears before leaving I had put in place perfectly my room because we had tidied the house tuna. II pet6 duvet I had left leaning over the two pillows of the bed to prevent the cushions you impolverassero. A.D.R. sometimes I did some cane with my roommates but not use other drugs. A.D.R. I hung in the room the article on 'LSD just because I found it interesting and 6 written by a famous scientist ADR Riccardo and instead a type usually precis❑ and tidy but do not know if he left his room clean ❑ less in how much I was sleeping and left her locked. A.D.R. The hall and mainly used by Riccardo and sometimes by others, I'm usually in my room because often comes to see my girlfriend. A.D.R. The bathroom small and used by everyone to shower and usually leave the window open to let it dry shower floor. A.D.R. Before leaving having washed Ienzuola of our beds, mine were blue, we put forth in the room where we set up three strings. I do not know what to say about the pillowcase dirty blue blood because I have left hanging and clean. A.D.R. We have two cats. Quell❑ black keep him at home, the other 6 pift stray and stay out. The black one is hurt and I think Friday October 26, is 6 wounded in his right ear. I remember that he ate, under the bathroom sink small it has lost a lot of blood because he shook his head. The keys of my house had Meredith in these days:. A.D.R. I do not know how to explain the bloodstains on my duvet iI as my door was locked as well as the window. Even Richard had closed all. A.D.R. In the dining room, above the switch plate lights, I do not remember having noticed bloodstains. A.D.R. Meredith is the other girls did not open the door to strangers. Closed always sent because the handle was rotta_ ADR Riccardo and a strange one and I'm not going to agree. None of not get along with him because he was selfish and despite the molto❑ we urinated out the window right the room when he was not there. II Bonassi is made aware of the facto that, as delegated by the AG competent in quality of witness bound to secrecy, high order not to prejudice the investigation incurred. F.L.C.S.