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Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It's like a golden oldies marathon weekend on a Top 40 radio station. Most of the guilter factoids Vixen presents have long since been debunked, or have never even been asserted by PLE/Mignini/Crini/Massei/Nencini. We've just found out Vixen is essentially copy/pasting from Peter Quennell for mercy's sake!!!

At this juncture, and before the motivations report, what is thete to talk about, really? No wonder 5 pages of the thread is devoted to dictionary definitions of scarcely defined quasi-legal concepts!!!!

It's not like there's any other issues in play. What we really need is Machiavelli back to explain in detail how the Masons and US media interests corrupted the Italian Supreme Court. I'd give that a try myself but nothing replaces the dietrological skills of our friend, Mach.
This is the weirdest hypothetical space I can imagine.
Was it a coin toss or a preordained return to sanity. Luca Cheli declared it so with local knowledge.
My view is that the state department commanded a result, I hope I am right, and yet they care not at all about Russ Faria.

By the way, if Mach had won, could DanO have stayed sane?
 
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Deposition of Mohammad Egbaria: Knew Rudy since September through Alex, brother of his girlfriend. On 27th Oct he received a call from Rudy which wasn’t from his usual cellphone number. He states Rudy’s usual cellphone number was 329-1819627. Rudy was in Milan dancing. He didn’t see Rudy in the days surrounding the murder, including Halloween.


Re this: I've long suspected that Guede actually did have a mobile phone in the period leading up to the murder (and during/shortly after the murder). I think it's difficult to imagine that a wide boy such as Guede, with his obvious links to the Perugia black market, and a seeming sideline in dealing, wouldn't have been able to get hold of a mobile phone. Indeed, I suspect he would have seen the possession of a mobile as a necessity - both for status reasons and for practical reasons.

I therefore suspect that Guede was savvy enough about mobile phone technology to believe that it would be possible for the police to trace his movements on the night of the murder. And if he'd made or received any calls or texts, then there is indeed a reasonable chance that his location could have been roughly tracked (assuming also that his mobile was not GSM-enabled, which it almost certainly was not).

So I think that Guede very probably threw away his mobile phone for that very reason, and obtained a new handset and SIM (or switched to another phone and SIM that he already had, but had not been using on the night of the murder). I suspect that the police didn't follow up on this properly. For example, had they obtained Egbaria's records, they could have figured out the number that Guede was using on 27th October, and tried to follow the SIM linked to that number on the night of the murder.
 
I don't know why you guys are being so harsh. Me and Grinder are ready to flip over to the other side just as soon as the washing machine results show up. The case is already looking pretty damning what with Raf's foot print being on the bath mat and Filomena's door being closed, open and/or ajar. Then there are all the Richard Owen reports and to cap it all, the unbreakable TJMK sources.



That bathmat print matched Sollecito's reference print with millimetre accuracy, remember!

I'll forget for now the material inaccuracies and selective measurements used in that "analysis", and I'll also forget the gross folly (and indeed the practical impossibility) of trying to match a footprint made in water onto a heavily-tufted wicking cotton mat with a reference print made in printer's ink onto a smooth piece of paper. Once I forget those things, I'm totally convinced! Knife-boy is a vicious murderer!!!111!!!!!1111!!!!!!!
 
The breakthrough is close. Here are the references to washing machines and dryers in Massei:

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Very droll. Massei had to condense 10,000 pages of evidence and testimony into 476 pages. Lots has been left out, including Kokomani's evidence and from Rudy's trial.

The fact that the strong early evidence has caused a stir shows how important the earliest reports are, before being airbrushed out by the PR machines predicated on scientific hoaxes and rebranding of the alleged perps.

It is ridiculous to refer to the TIMES and the GUARDIAN as "rags", just because their on the spot crime reporters relayed the testimonies directly from the court at the time, visited the crime scene for themselves and had direct communication with those in the know, to impart the facts of the case.
 
That bathmat print matched Sollecito's reference print with millimetre accuracy, remember!

I'll forget for now the material inaccuracies and selective measurements used in that "analysis", and I'll also forget the gross folly (and indeed the practical impossibility) of trying to match a footprint made in water onto a heavily-tufted wicking cotton mat with a reference print made in printer's ink onto a smooth piece of paper. Once I forget those things, I'm totally convinced! Knife-boy is a vicious murderer!!!111!!!!!1111!!!!!!!

And even failing that, it is at least (arguably/possibly/remotely/theoretically) compatible which is good enough anyway.
 
That bathmat print matched Sollecito's reference print with millimetre accuracy, remember!

I'll forget for now the material inaccuracies and selective measurements used in that "analysis", and I'll also forget the gross folly (and indeed the practical impossibility) of trying to match a footprint made in water onto a heavily-tufted wicking cotton mat with a reference print made in printer's ink onto a smooth piece of paper. Once I forget those things, I'm totally convinced! Knife-boy is a vicious murderer!!!111!!!!!1111!!!!!!!

"Many a true word said in jest." ~ Shakespeare
 
Re this: I've long suspected that Guede actually did have a mobile phone in the period leading up to the murder (and during/shortly after the murder). I think it's difficult to imagine that a wide boy such as Guede, with his obvious links to the Perugia black market, and a seeming sideline in dealing, wouldn't have been able to get hold of a mobile phone. Indeed, I suspect he would have seen the possession of a mobile as a necessity - both for status reasons and for practical reasons.

I therefore suspect that Guede was savvy enough about mobile phone technology to believe that it would be possible for the police to trace his movements on the night of the murder. And if he'd made or received any calls or texts, then there is indeed a reasonable chance that his location could have been roughly tracked (assuming also that his mobile was not GSM-enabled, which it almost certainly was not).

So I think that Guede very probably threw away his mobile phone for that very reason, and obtained a new handset and SIM (or switched to another phone and SIM that he already had, but had not been using on the night of the murder). I suspect that the police didn't follow up on this properly. For example, had they obtained Egbaria's records, they could have figured out the number that Guede was using on 27th October, and tried to follow the SIM linked to that number on the night of the murder.


I see. So Rudy was savvy enough to hide the phone re the crime scene, whereas the kids were two innocents who switched off their phones just so they could romp in peace without Daddy Sollecito bending Raf's ear. Aw, bless. The kids are real cute.
 
That's actually a fake map the fake wiki made using the real fingerprint map as a template and Photoshop.

Just so there's no confusion: The fake map the guilters made is the one on the left. It's not from the police, prosecution or any expert from the trial. They used the fingerprint map as a template and photoshopped it.

Real fingerprint map from the Scientific Police: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cottage-Fingerprint-Map.jpg

The only map the police made showing the location of footprints revealed by luminol was this one on page 15 of Rinaldi's report which Vinci uses in his report.

Rinadli Report: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lorenzo-Rinaldi-1.pdf

IIRC, Stefi shows the location as Filomena's room with picture and two areas circled in her DNA presentation. I have never seen a photo of the actual stain revealed by Luminol, just that it is described as a blob.

ETA: They are assigned a photo page number however, although I have never seen it. The test results index shows two page numbers, the one identified as R is the page number in the test results document, the page numbers identified as A.F. (for foto) is a document that contains the pictures of the evidence.

I do not know about photo shopping or what else, however, there are two luminol photos placed in the map diagram that look like luminol hits. If they are documented photos they will be documented somewhere else.

There is a large police book of photos which are numbered and correspond to the first trial documentation but I didn't see these luminol photos in there nor in Rinaldi's report (that could be because the hits in Filomena's room could not be compared to feet prints). Rose do you have the photo page numbers for the two luminol hits?
 
Not true. Hospitals use ear lobe blood because earlobes bleed well in response to pricking with a needle, they certainly produce lots of drops of blood. Then you have to hold your ear to stop it bleeding. It is often done in children where it is easier to collect capillary blood from drops of blood from the ear than taking blood from the vein. FWIW major arteries are likely to spurt producing a spray of blood not drips.

So does this mean you are a fule? I would not take anything Molesworth says as reliable!

I see. The ear piercings Amanda had done a few days before the murder, were still dripping blood. Ah, that explains why her blood was mixed with Mez'.
 
I see. The ear piercings Amanda had done a few days before the murder, were still dripping blood. Ah, that explains why her blood was mixed with Mez'.
Mixed blood? Another nail in the coffin. Have you a reference for this? Preferably something from TJMK so I can judge its reliability.
 
Sometimes in the examination of the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case posters here rightfully examine deeply the minute details of the case. In doing this, we all sometimes neglect that it is difficult to determine the motivations and intentions of the Italian police in attempting to solve the murder/rape of Meredith Kercher so quickly, apparently before significant forensic results had been obtained. This post is intended to give an overview based on my understanding.

I have suggested, based upon the testimony of VQA (= assistant vice commandant, IIUC) Edgardo Giobbi, that there was a search by the police for "suspects of convenience". That is, the police first looked at the persons closest to Meredith in Perugia as potential suspects. This is actually an effective method in many murder investigations, as long as it is followed with open-minded honesty and competence.

The problem in this case is that there was no open-minded honesty or competence. An important element of the crime scene, the apparent break-in through Filomena's window, was quickly and erroneously attributed to staging. Giobbi's testimony provides reasons for this attribution, but none are objectively supported by forensic evidence; except for the reference to glass fragments on top of clothes and lack of glass on the ground (neither of which were objectively documented by photography), the other reasons related to Giobbi's intuition or experience. The relative absence of glass on the ground would actually be consistent with a rock thrown from outside through the window.

While one of the Postal Police reportedly questioned whether there was a burglary, it is plausible (as pointed out recently by Bill Williams) that the PP's statement may have meant he perceived an incomplete burglary.

My inference is that when Giobbi identified Amanda's alibi for the night of the murder as resting only on her being with Raffaele in his apartment, and as he stated weaker than that of the others close to Meredith, and recognizing her lack of a lawyer and relative unworldliness, he fixed on her as a "suspect of convenience". No doubt the obsessions and legal problems of the director of the investigation, PM Giuliano Mignini, and the views (unknown to us) and integrity (later found questionable) of Deputy Police Commissioner Monica Napoleani were important.

But what motivated the police to move so quickly, apparently before the significant forensic results were obtained? I believe it was not merely incompetence. Certainly the anticipated arrival of Amanda's mother on Nov. 6, 2007 could have played a role. But there were significant political and media pressures on the police, as this well-known quotation from the Nov. 6 press conference states:



It was these pressures on the police that motivated their initial misconduct, the procedurally illegal interrogations of Nov. 5/6, 2007, and of course it was the lack of integrity of the police that allowed that misconduct. The interrogation of Amanda Knox included, if one accepts her claims of being threatened and hit, violations of Italian criminal law punishable by imprisonment. The continued police, prosecution, and judicial misconduct after the interrogation were motivated by not merely the desire to save face, but a desire of the judiciary (which includes the police and prosecutors as well as the judges) to defend the police from possible criminal charges. Fortunately, not all the judges have felt that their responsibility to the judicial team outweighed their responsibility to provide some justice in the case. Thus, the Hellmann court provisionally acquitted and the Marasca panel of the CSC has now (March, 2015) finally acquitted Amanda and Raffaele.

ETA: Souce: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

ETA2: Amanda Knox remains convicted of calunnia against Patrick Lumumba. She has lodged a claim against Italy with the ECHR regarding this conviction as a violation of her rights under the Convention.

Agree with all of this. But would add that every other case I have heard of with Italian police shows this type of abuse of process by police, prosecutors and judges. including mind bendingly irrational leaps of logic and credulity, are completely unexceptional in this case, and wholly consistent with a dysfunctional entrenched bureaucracy.
 
The truth is Knox spoke poor Italian and Filomena spoke poor English. A huge amount is being put on over interpretation of a conversation with no contemporary record, and a high likelihood of tense errors. I could easily say under stress in French or Spanish say I am at a place instead of I have been at a place. I would probably not even be aware of the tense error. This is quite apart from any uncertainty about the accuracy of telephone location data.

No, that is highly unlikely. Whenever I go abroad to a strange country, I ensure I have the local British Embassy and local police on my mobile. We know Amanda was au fait in this respect, for she rang home for the first time on the morning after the murder, just before the body was found, knowing to dial the international code.

I've rung up foreign police and the chap spoke English OK.
 
Why did Filomena not call the police? She was a native Italian speaker, her room had been broken into, she was 'in charge' of the flat, she was a trainee lawyer. Instead she decided to come over and remove property from the crime scene? Now that is suspicious behaviour.

Filomena was under the impression Amanda was going to call them.
 
Again there is no contemporaneous record. Knox spoke English, the police man spoke Italian. The police have no idea what Knox said. What they can say at best is that Sollecito whose English was poor, said that Knox said that the door was locked. Solicit in fact says he mistranslated. The Italian for closed and locked are very similar and Knox said the door was closed.

Sollecito calculatingly told the police Mez' door was always locked, yet claims later he'd tried to break it down earlier.

Think about it. "Mez door is always closed" ""OK, sir, nothing to worry about then." "No."
 
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Not true. Stefanoni was called in from Rome by the investigating Police. She testifies she arrived about 20.00 Friday 2 November. Knox was not present. Why do you continue to post things that are untrue? Could you employ a fact checker? Nearly every post contains errors.

Perhaps you did not see my later correction, "soz, Napoleoni, not Stefanoni".
 
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I do not know about photo shopping or what else, however, there are two luminol photos placed in the map diagram that look like luminol hits. If they are documented photos they will be documented somewhere else.

There is a large police book of photos which are numbered and correspond to the first trial documentation but I didn't see these luminol photos in there nor in Rinaldi's report (that could be because the hits in Filomena's room could not be compared to feet prints). Rose do you have the photo page numbers for the two luminol hits?

I know but they're not real photos of reps 176 & 177. No photos of those exist. They've used photoshopped the whole thing and added the little blue there for appearance based on where Steffi claims the samples were located in her presentation.

I remember when they first started tweeting the fake map. They were quite proud of it. There's even different versions of it because they made a few before settling on that one.
 
Just so there's no confusion: The fake map the guilters made is the one on the left. It's not from the police, prosecution or any expert from the trial. They used the fingerprint map as a template and photoshopped it.

Real fingerprint map from the Scientific Police: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cottage-Fingerprint-Map.jpg

The only map the police made showing the location of footprints revealed by luminol was this one on page 15 of Rinaldi's report which Vinci uses in his report.

Rinadli Report: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lorenzo-Rinaldi-1.pdf

The aim AFAICS is to provide an easily comprehensive chart of where the luminol highlighted footsteps are.

We do it in chemistry so it's easy to see how molecules are structured, or in physiology to highlight areas of the brain.

Nobody really thinks the floor is navy blue, it's to simulate the dark conditions required to take flourescent photos.
 
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In this case I think it is the responsibility of the house holder. The neighbour does not know that for instance the house holder had not forgotten their keys and broke in themselves, or another neighbour had already told them.

You arrive home panting and out of breath. Not only has your neighbour not called the police at any time in the three hour window, but....

...There's a body in one of your rooms!

You give your neighbour a funny look thereon after.
 
The only "evidence" presented is testimony of the glass on top of clothes. They took no pictures of this and the pictures we do have show evidence of the glass under the clothes. The other thing they mention is the lack of items stolen in Filomena's room. It's clear to me that Filomena left the room in a mess, I believe many items were already on the floor before the window was broken.

Bloody Filomena. What a rogue, eh?
 
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