Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kauffer]

Has it occurred to you that your own sources are pulling the wool over your eyes, leaving out anything that might incriminate Amanda and Raf?

The washing machine might be relevant, it might not be. However, it is no good denying it, just because you do not like it.

It's actually no good your making claims that aren't true just because you want them to be.

If you want to make a claim, post some real evidence to go with it. Not a TJMK Quennell orchestrated falsehood. But real evidence.

 

[Strozzi]

ETA Why flush? The toilet was left unflushed, especially.

A few days ago, Vixen, you referred to the unflushed toilet as "disgusting". People have a natural desire to step back from poop in the toilet, not rush forward. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say "people" as I mean it since I mean almost all people. There must be a few, like the aptly-named Dirty Harry, who step in for a better look.

Amanda was seeing odd things that individually were just odd and easily explainable with an innocent assumption, but after seeing several she began to feel uneasy and left. These include the open front door as if a housemate had gone downstairs for a brief few minutes - but nobody came back even after a while had passed, a spec of blood on the facet, a diluted brownish (menstrual?) smear on the bath mat, and then the disgusting souvenir in the other women's toilet. After these consecutive oddities Amanda, dressed but probably with her hair not yet fully dried, was out of there back to Raffaele's. The individual odd finds cumulatively added up to something odd - odd enough to tell Raffaele at breakfast at his place that there was something not right at her place.

 

[Grinder]

Has it occurred to you that your own sources are pulling the wool over your eyes, leaving out anything that might incriminate Amanda and Raf?

The washing machine might be relevant, it might not be. However, it is no good denying it, just because you do not like it.

Vixen this is amazingly important information. This means that someone started the washer at what time? How long do those type of washers go? Would it mean that Amanda started it at 11 or 11:30?

Could you refer me to Massei's write-up on this? I can't wait. I may be joining Anglo.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen this is amazingly important information. This means that someone started the washer at what time? How long do those type of washers go? Would it mean that Amanda started it at 11 or 11:30?

Could you refer me to Massei's write-up on this? I can't wait. I may be joining Anglo.

Vixen has had a long string of unsubstantiated claims, many lift straight from Peter Quennell's site. All of those factoids have long since been disproven, and (in fact) become the reason why there was a total exoneration in Italy last March.

However, if anyone actually used evidence to substantiate what PQ has claimed, there would be more than posters to this board switching sides.

Vixen doesn't seem to think things require proof. Vixen is also very muddled.

 

[Grinder]

Vixen has had a long string of unsubstantiated claims, many lift straight from Peter Quennell's site. All of those factoids have long since been disproven, and (in fact) become the reason why there was a total exoneration in Italy last March.

However, if anyone actually used evidence to substantiate what PQ has claimed, there would be more than posters to this board switching sides.

Vixen doesn't seem to think things require proof. Vixen is also very muddled.

Bill, Bill, Bill, this is an amazing breakthrough. Have faith. I'm sure I'll be referred to section of Massei I've never found before. Please Vixen don't let me down.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, Bill, Bill, this is an amazing breakthrough. Have faith. I'm sure I'll be referred to section of Massei I've never found before. Please Vixen don't let me down.

The breakthrough is close. Here are the references to washing machines and dryers in Massei:

Romanelli and Mezzetti used a different bathroom, bigger than the one used by
Meredith and Amanda, equipped with a small anteroom that contained a washing
machine, which was entered by a door opening from the living room.​

They went inside wearing shoe covers [93] and gloves, and they divided the rooms
among themselves: besides Profazio, Meredith’s room was entered by Napoleoni
and Bigini; Amanda's room was entered by Zugarini and Gubbiotti; Barbadori dealt
with Romanelli’s room. They also had a quick look at the two bathrooms. The
following days, another entry was made to get the items that were in the washing
machine located in the room adjacent to the bigger bathroom, the one with the feces.​

All
had on gloves and shoe covers, and all remained in the kitchen area. Only Romanelli
was asked whether she recognized the clothes in the washing machine positioned in
front of the larger bathroom, which [clothes] could be seen through the porthole
thereof.
​

Romanelli and Mezzetti used a different bathroom, bigger than the one used by
Meredith and Amanda, equipped with a small anteroom that contained a washing
machine, which was entered by a door opening from the living room.​

On November 6, no one entered Meredith’s room other than the three performing
the search (Profazio, Napoleoni and Bigini). On November 7, there was another
entry into the house ‚for the problem of the washing machine, to collect the clothes;
but I also know that they did not go into other rooms‛​

Three samples were taken from two very wet lilac towels found by the Flying Squad
[Squadra Mobile] of Perugia inside the washing machine, but they gave no results, nor
did a grey hairdryer confiscated by the Flying Squad.
​

On November 7, 2007 the clothing that was in the washing machine, located in the
area between the large bathroom and the kitchen-living room, was collected.
Profazio and Giobbi were in charge of removing Meredith's computer.
​

 

[MichaelB]

Some more Teddy summaries:

Alexandro Crudo: Frequented Rudy in various situations. He never took drugs in his presence and neither did he ever drink excessively. He never saw Rudy with Meredith. He didn’t see Rudy on 1st Nov. On the day that they announced Meredith’s murder on TV, Rudy was at his house and told him that Meredith was the girl they’d seen at Shamrock’s. He then told Alexandro that he was going to Milan to dance. He didn’t notice anything strange about Rudy on 2nd Nov, nor did he notice any wounds to his hands. Only in hindsight when he heard of Rudy’s involvement did he think that Rudy’s wasn’t tranquil. Previously Rudy had confided in Alex telling him he wanted a girlfriend because he felt alone.


Hicham Khiri: Moroccan, he’s a chef in restaurant named Paiolo, and also is the owner of a clothes shop. His alibi was working in the restaurant on the night of the murder. He met Meredith in September in Merlin’s pub and also Sophie. He danced with Sophie and they exchanged numbers at the end of the evening. For two weeks he exchanged a few SMS with Sophie and then they met up in Merlin’s where they talked. Sophie was with her friends, including Meredith. A while later while with a friend he bumped into Sophie outside Gradisca’s, where Sophie was drunk and accompanied by Meredith and one other. Meredith asked Hicham if he and his friend would accompany her and Sophie home given Sophie’s condition. They accompanied them as far as Piazza Grimana. The next day Sophie sent him an SMS to thank him. He didn’t see Sophie again until 31st Oct (Halloween) at Merlin’s, who was with her friends including Meredith. She asked why he didn’t respond to the SMS and he said he had no credit. There they had a friendly conversation which culminated in a kiss. After some dancing he asked her to go to Domus with him but she said she would go later as it was too early. Sophie arrived at Domus at 2:30 with her friends. They danced together and kissed again. At 04:30am he invited Sophie to eat a sandwich (panino) at a bakery but she stayed with her friends instead.

Sophie in her testimony says she refused Hicham but eventually gave in to his advances on the Wednesday before the murder. She also says that Meredith told her that Hicham went up to Meredith and asked if she had anything against him, to which she replied no.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Brad Bannon on forensic bias

When Brad Bannon was preparing to defend David Evans (one of the Duke lacrosse three), he read John Butler's textbook on DNA profiling. His cross examination of Dr. Brian Meehan was one of the pivotal moments of the case. For the newest edition of his textbook Dr. Butler asked Mr. Bannon some questions, including his common tactics in challenging DNA evidence. Mr. Bannon replied in part, "Did the lab follow acceptable standards of DNA analysis? Did it follow its own protocols? Is the lab applying those standards and protocols consistently or selectively? For example, why do you call a peak below 150 RFU as a true allele for one purpose, or in one case, but not for another? If there are such internal inconsistencies, do they usually inure to the benefit of one side's theory of the case? If so, is that evidence of bias?"

For me one of the earliest clues of bias in this case was the fact that Stefanoni accepted peaks below 50 RFU as part of the profile associated with the knife. Inman and Rudin discussed the need for a cutoff that is set before one starts the experiment.

MichaelB,

Do you think that 176 and 177 were not taken from Filomena's room?

 

[acbytesla]

I can't take it any more. This dialog with Vixen is BEYOND MORONIC. I'm not sure what is MORE STUPID, Vixen's TOTAL RELIANCE ON tabloid and other media outlets for her information or all of us wasting our time trying to show her that her information is incorrect with references to the actual legal documents.

Vixen is not the least bit interested in learning the facts of the case, instead she gets her rocks off with her diarrhea of lies. Her latest citation was Peter Quennell for crying out loud

I welcomed her to the forum because I thought Vixen was genuinely interested in learning THE TRUTH and or was willing to intelligently evaluate the evidence. But of course this hasn't been the track she has chosen to take.

Instead she ignores the actual court documents and somehow thinks that media reports are somehow more credible.

I respect others when they have a difference of opinion and enjoy learning from the different perspective. But this is worse than dealing with evolution and global warming deniers.

 

[Bill Williams]

I can't take it any more. This dialog with Vixen is BEYOND MORONIC. I'm not sure what is MORE STUPID, Vixen's TOTAL RELIANCE ON tabloid and other media outlets for her information or all of us wasting our time trying to show her that her information is incorrect with references to the actual legal documents.

Vixen is not the least bit interested in learning the facts of the case, instead she gets her rocks off with her diarrhea of lies. Her latest citation was Peter Quennell for crying out loud

I welcomed her to the forum because I thought Vixen was genuinely interested in learning THE TRUTH and or was willing to intelligently evaluate the evidence. But of course this hasn't been the track she has chosen to take.

Instead she ignores the actual court documents and somehow thinks that media reports are somehow more credible.

I respect others when they have a difference of opinion and enjoy learning from the different perspective. But this is worse than dealing with evolution and global warming deniers.

Wait, what!? Global warming is real? Did Quennell confirm it?

 

[MichaelB]

When Brad Bannon was preparing to defend David Evans (one of the Duke lacrosse three), he read John Butler's textbook on DNA profiling. His cross examination of Dr. Brian Meehan was one of the pivotal moments of the case. For the newest edition of his textbook Dr. Butler asked Mr. Bannon some questions, including his common tactics in challenging DNA evidence. Mr. Bannon replied in part, "Did the lab follow acceptable standards of DNA analysis? Did it follow its own protocols? Is the lab applying those standards and protocols consistently or selectively? For example, why do you call a peak below 150 RFU as a true allele for one purpose, or in one case, but not for another? If there are such internal inconsistencies, do they usually inure to the benefit of one side's theory of the case? If so, is that evidence of bias?"

For me one of the earliest clues of bias in this case was the fact that Stefanoni accepted peaks below 50 RFU as part of the profile associated with the knife. Inman and Rudin discussed the need for a cutoff that is set before one starts the experiment.

MichaelB,

Do you think that 176 and 177 were not taken from Filomena's room?

Yes. That's what I was speculating Chris. There's no proof that's where they come from. There's no photos of the luminol in Filomena's room yet there is for everywhere else and 176 and 177 aren't listed on the 2008 evidence map yet the other luminol results are. There's only the word of a liar saying so.

 

[Strozzi]

I'm waiting for you to quote trial testimony confirming the fantasy you posted. It would really change my view about the case.

Katody, you will wait forever. Vixen cannot back up her washing machine (dryer) claim with real trial testimony. Her claims on this are fictitious.

Vixen, teacher says you are to sit under the piano for the rest of the afternoon. Move over, Peggy. Make room for her.

 

[acbytesla]

Wait, what!? Global warming is real? Did Quennell confirm it?

Thanks Bill. I needed that laugh. I am looking forward to reading the motivation report and maybe discussing that.

But this conversation with Vixen has grown very tiresome. She thinks she's being clever bobbing and weaving around the facts. She said it in one of her earlier posts, she came here to "debate" the case. She sees this as some kind of referendum on her debating skills. I'm done with that nonsense. It isn't impressing me.

If I saw a genuine interest in the truth, this might be worthwhile. But instead of going "hmmm" when she is confronted that her understanding of the case is wrong, she either clings to the fiction or jumps to some other disproven factoid.

I'm done with people that refuse to learn.

 

[christianahannah]

Yes. That's what I was speculating Chris. There's no proof that's where they come from. There's no photos of the luminol in Filomena's room yet there is for everywhere else and 176 and 177 aren't listed on the 2008 evidence map yet the other luminol results are. There's only the word of a liar saying so.

There are two photos of Rep. 176 and 177 on a map diagram of the cottage (along with the other luminol prints). I haven't found them yet separate from the diagram but I assume they are collected in some document. I will keep looking. However here is the link to the map diagram (it is from the murder wiki - click on the map to make larger).

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Luminol_Traces

 

[TruthCalls]

I can't take it any more. This dialog with Vixen is BEYOND MORONIC. I'm not sure what is MORE STUPID, Vixen's TOTAL RELIANCE ON tabloid and other media outlets for her information or all of us wasting our time trying to show her that her information is incorrect with references to the actual legal documents.

Vixen is not the least bit interested in learning the facts of the case, instead she gets her rocks off with her diarrhea of lies. Her latest citation was Peter Quennell for crying out loud

I welcomed her to the forum because I thought Vixen was genuinely interested in learning THE TRUTH and or was willing to intelligently evaluate the evidence. But of course this hasn't been the track she has chosen to take.

Instead she ignores the actual court documents and somehow thinks that media reports are somehow more credible.

I respect others when they have a difference of opinion and enjoy learning from the different perspective. But this is worse than dealing with evolution and global warming deniers.

Just when I thought nothing could be more ludicrous than ten pages of debate over what "framing" means, along comes Vixen citing as sources -- Quennell and The Guardian. Somehow Moronic doesn't even begin to say it.

Oh, BTW.. awesome program on Tesla today on AHC. I thought of ya...

 

[Bill Williams]

Thanks Bill. I needed that laugh. I am looking forward to reading the motivation report and maybe discussing that.

But this conversation with Vixen has grown very tiresome. She thinks she's being clever bobbing and weaving around the facts. She said it in one of her earlier posts, she came here to "debate" the case. She sees this as some kind of referendum on her debating skills. I'm done with that nonsense. It isn't impressing me.

If I saw a genuine interest in the truth, this might be worthwhile. But instead of going "hmmm" when she is confronted that her understanding of the case is wrong, she either clings to the fiction or jumps to some other disproven factoid.

I'm done with people that refuse to learn.

People WHO refuse to learn..... just saying.

 

[Numbers]

Just when I thought nothing could be more ludicrous than ten pages of debate over what "framing" means, along comes Vixen citing as sources -- Quennell and The Guardian. Somehow Moronic doesn't even begin to say it.

Oh, BTW.. awesome program on Tesla today on AHC. I thought of ya...

Bulletin: Certain anonymous ISF posters will be notifying US Federal and State judges on the proper use of the word "framing".

 

[Dan O.]

I can't take it any more. This dialog with Vixen is BEYOND MORONIC. I'm not sure what is MORE STUPID, Vixen's TOTAL RELIANCE ON tabloid and other media outlets for her information or all of us wasting our time trying to show her that her information is incorrect with references to the actual legal documents.

Vixen is not the least bit interested in learning the facts of the case, instead she gets her rocks off with her diarrhea of lies. Her latest citation was Peter Quennell for crying out loud

I welcomed her to the forum because I thought Vixen was genuinely interested in learning THE TRUTH and or was willing to intelligently evaluate the evidence. But of course this hasn't been the track she has chosen to take.

Instead she ignores the actual court documents and somehow thinks that media reports are somehow more credible.

I respect others when they have a difference of opinion and enjoy learning from the different perspective. But this is worse than dealing with evolution and global warming deniers.

Now, don't you start misrepresenting the facts. A dialog is when two sides have a conversational exchange. All we are getting is a one sided spew to which the responses are falling on deaf ears. It's too bad the moderators don't recognize spam and limit the number of topics a single poster can raise in a day. At least that way there would be a chance of digging deeper into the evidence instead of skimming over the same old tired guilder talking points which we all know and don't even have to open our references to refute.

 

[Bill Williams]

Now, don't you start misrepresenting the facts. A dialog is when two sides have a conversational exchange. All we are getting is a one sided spew to which the responses are falling on deaf ears. It's too bad the moderators don't recognize spam and limit the number of topics a single poster can raise in a day. At least that way there would be a chance of digging deeper into the evidence instead of skimming over the same old tired guilder talking points which we all know and don't even have to open our references to refute.

Vixen is slow flooding the thread.

 

[Dan O.]

I asked Vixen about the open door and he never responded. I don't think any of the PGP have even acknowledged the open door. Here is another reference that ties into it:

"Tuesday, using the equipment Luminol, experts will try any other stains useful in the house of the crime"​

Corriere 2007-11-11
(Note especially the date. Tuesday would be the 13th and the use of Luminol requires that it be dark therefore at night. The photo of the Open door was taken on the morning of the 14th.)

Now, how is it that there is a news account saying they will be going in, Photographic evidence that the door had been opened and yet the official testimony is that the cottage remained sealed from November 7 until December 18? That cannot be the work of a single player.