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Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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This is why I prefer the term "railroad". We don't have 10 pages of arguing the definition of that, lol.

How about this?:

Dictionary definition -> Grinder wins
Common use argument -> Grinder wins

Everybody's happy.

Sorry charlie but the two people that joined in late both went with Grinder for dictionary and common use.

Please find some common uses where it means police misconduct or that someone other than the policed framed a guilty party. There are other word for that.

As Lone Pine stated most framing is done by non-police so do you really think lots of common citizen fabricate evidence to convict guilty people.
 
The reason why those who think you can frame somebody you think is guilty because framing defines a style of false evidence better than most others.

Only for the ignorant and uneducated. Framing has had a definition for 125 years. It is clear.

If the vast majority of people hear the police framed him they think he was innocent. Don't believe me go out and ask people like I did today.

Ask people what it means if someone was framed for a crime?
 
Read the thread. I went over this. They were suspicious of them and wanted them to buckle and tell all they knew.

They may have used techniques that were misconduct. They didn't begin framing them (using the dictionary def.) before the 5th and may never have manufactured evidence against them. I think Stef is incompetent and believed her work. She also wasn't used to American style defense and was shocked when her work was questioned.

The thread doesn't really answer the question as posed. No matter. Someone else may have a go at it.
 
Collins

Frame
(slang) to conspire to incriminate (someone) on a false charge
(slang) to contrive the dishonest outcome of (a contest, match, etc); rig
from Collins

frame-up
A conspiracy to incriminate someone falsely:
a police frame-up
link
 
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You have cleverly made it appear Amanda rang Filomena to report her room ransacked/burgled. The actual timeline is as follows:

------


12:34pm Filomena calls Amanda again who tells her that her bedroom is in “chaos!” The window is broken, glass is everywhere and clothing thrown on the floor. Filomena hangs up, calls Marco and asks him to go to the villa since he is closer; now she is in a panic to get home. (2009 Filomena Romanelli testimony) (2009 Amanda Knox testimony) (2009 Massei Motivation) Note that at no point does Amanda call Filomena to tell her about her room. Filomena must call Amanda to find out. According to the dutiful dishwashers, the penny drops that there has – at a minimum – been a burglary in their home. But a further thirteen minutes pass and the happy couple see no reason to report anything. That will change soon, as the Italian police are on their way, in fact they’re already in the immediate vicinity.

--------
Excerpt DOUBT 2015 Nick van der Leek

There is no evidence the pair were in the slightest bit concerned by the events, as reported by Amanda in her email home and her later court testimony about "menstral blood, ew".

Ok, if this is an excerpt from "Doubt", then who actually is the author of the excerpt? Since the "book" "Doubt" was banned from Amazon for plagiarism within days of being offered for sale, how are we supposed to know who to credit with what?

An unreliable author, citing unreliable sources, and copying everything in sight, to palm it off as his own work? That's your source if information?

I can't take it any more, please stop, you've exceeded the hilarious factor for the month.

You have got to be kidding.

If you have any association with that pair of frauds please just fess up now.

Oh the humanity!
 
Frame
(slang) to conspire to incriminate (someone) on a false charge
(slang) to contrive the dishonest outcome of (a contest, match, etc); rig
from Collins

frame-up
A conspiracy to incriminate someone falsely:
a police frame-up
link

Yup. Police can frame an innocent person as can others.

False charge equals innocent.
 
Ok, if this is an excerpt from "Doubt", then who actually is the author of the excerpt? Since the "book" "Doubt" was banned from Amazon for plagiarism within days of being offered for sale, how are we supposed to know who to credit with what?

An unreliable author, citing unreliable sources, and copying everything in sight, to palm it off as his own work? That's your source if information?

I can't take it any more, please stop, you've exceeded the hilarious factor for the month.

You have got to be kidding.

If you have any association with that pair of frauds please just fess up now.

Oh the humanity!

What is this? The Hindenburg? Lol
 
Am I an elite word-smith? Brilliant!

But I don't have a problem with framing being used to describe official misconduct, as long as those perpetrating the misconduct knew the suspects to be innocent. Your example above doesn't contradict that.

But the person claimed to be innocent.

By your standards and definition, IIUC, as soon as a person is suspected of a crime by the police, that person is guilty and cannot be framed by the police (or anyone else).

This despite the legal standard that a suspect, an accused person, or a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.

What you are supporting is the "Dirty Harry" standard that the police are the accusers and the court. Their suspicion is enough to render someone guilty.
 
Your argument is idiotic. I have never said that framing isn't official misconduct you were the one bring out. out legal definitions. Of course framing is misconduct, I've said that all along. All misconduct however is not framing which is what you've been saying. I don't see framing defined in the quote of yours so I think this is just babbling.

The definition doesn't say anything about the legal status of framing vis-a-vis the police.

This elite word-smith uses online sources of major dictionaries not obscure snippets that say nothing about the definition.

This is not what I have been saying. Official misconduct in a US court would include, for example, character assassination of the defendant, as was done by the Italian prosecution and civil suit lawyers against Amanda Knox.

Framing by police or prosecutor is only one kind of official misconduct, and it is not restricted to planting evidence. It may include, for example, soliciting false testimony or misrepresenting forensic evidence.

I'm sorry for your uninformed arguments on this topic, you often have had good arguments.

ETA: Dictionary editors and their staff compile dictionaries by researching the use of words by people (in books, magazines, newspapers, scientific articles, court decisions, possibly other materials and media such as movies, TV, and online articles). If judges and defendants use "framing" to describe some kinds of alleged official misconduct against suspects or defendants, it is thus a use of that word in the English language.
 
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Am I an elite word-smith? Brilliant!

But I don't have a problem with framing being used to describe official misconduct, as long as those perpetrating the misconduct knew the suspects to be innocent. Your example above doesn't contradict that.

An example of the use of "frame-up" from Wikipedia:

Some notable frame-ups

Carl Ingold Jacobson, Los Angeles, California, City Council member, framed on a morals charge
Arthur Allan Thomas, New Zealand farmer convicted of the Crewe murders and later acquitted after it was found out police planted evidence at the crime scene László Rajk, accused of being a "Titoist Spy". The injustice of this trial helped to trigger the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 against the communist government of Hungary

Soure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frameup

A Royal Commission of Inquiry was established, headed by retired New South Wales Justice Robert Taylor. This declared Thomas to have been wrongfully charged and convicted, and found that among other improprieties, police had planted a .22 rifle cartridge case in the garden of the house where the murders were committed. The case was found four months and ten days after the area had already been subjected to one of the most intensive police searches ever undertaken....A police review of the original investigation released in July 2014 cleared all other suspects and implied Arthur Thomas remained a police suspect.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Allan_Thomas

Please tell me if you believe that Wikipedia is "wrong" for calling this NZ case of apparent wrongful conviction (Thomas was pardoned after 9 years in prison) a frame-up. NZ police may still consider Thomas a suspect, but a Royal Commission believed he was the victim of police misconduct (planting false evidence). Is it easy to know whether Thomas was "innocent" or "guilty" in terms of your standards for the definition of "frame-up"? What if anything is lost or distorted in using the term "frame-up" or "alleged frame-up" for this case?
 
An example of the use of "frame-up" from Wikipedia:

Some notable frame-ups

Carl Ingold Jacobson, Los Angeles, California, City Council member, framed on a morals charge
Arthur Allan Thomas, New Zealand farmer convicted of the Crewe murders and later acquitted after it was found out police planted evidence at the crime scene László Rajk, accused of being a "Titoist Spy". The injustice of this trial helped to trigger the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 against the communist government of Hungary

Soure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frameup

A Royal Commission of Inquiry was established, headed by retired New South Wales Justice Robert Taylor. This declared Thomas to have been wrongfully charged and convicted, and found that among other improprieties, police had planted a .22 rifle cartridge case in the garden of the house where the murders were committed. The case was found four months and ten days after the area had already been subjected to one of the most intensive police searches ever undertaken....A police review of the original investigation released in July 2014 cleared all other suspects and implied Arthur Thomas remained a police suspect.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Allan_Thomas

Please tell me if you believe that Wikipedia is "wrong" for calling this NZ case of apparent wrongful conviction (Thomas was pardoned after 9 years in prison) a frame-up. NZ police may still consider Thomas a suspect, but a Royal Commission believed he was the victim of police misconduct (planting false evidence). Is it easy to know whether Thomas was "innocent" or "guilty" in terms of your standards for the definition of "frame-up"? What if anything is lost or distorted in using the term "frame-up" or "alleged frame-up" for this case?
And here is some complex detail of police and political behaviour over the case.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/tag/arthur_allan_thomas

Let me state at the outset that the efforts of Booth, Sprott, Yallop, et al kept the issue in front of the public at a time when the judiciary had closed ranks and walked away. The inquiry by Adams-Smith was at the direction of Prime Minister Rob Muldoon, and was made over the objections of Crown Law, Crown Prosecutors, and Police.
 
But the person claimed to be innocent.

By your standards and definition, IIUC, as soon as a person is suspected of a crime by the police, that person is guilty and cannot be framed by the police (or anyone else).

WHAT? No one has said anything similar to this. Perhaps should get a room. No one can frame a guilty person. The hard and soul of the meaning is that the person framed was innocent.

This despite the legal standard that a suspect, an accused person, or a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.

The standard of guilt in court has nothing to do with the discussion. You keep bringing in straw man arguments. Regardless of the stage of a court case the person, in fact, is either guilty or innocent. Just because (name the most obviously guilty person you can think of) is presumed innocent during the trial they were never innocent after the crime was convicted. They were always guilty. They did it.

What you are supporting is the "Dirty Harry" standard that the police are the accusers and the court. Their suspicion is enough to render someone guilty.

You may repeat that as often as pleases you but no one is making that case. Only an innocent person can be framed. If one is guilty they can't be framed by definition. If you are guilty you can't be framed by the police or anybody else. That's the point of the word.

If a man says I'm been framed he is saying he is innocent not that I did it but the LE didn't play fair.
 
CJ72's Simplified Scorecard on "Framing":

1. Getting Amanda to reach for knife on Nov 4, 2007 = Framing, Yes or No?



They were doing exactly what they have said they were doing. They believe in observing the behavior of people and they think from that observation they can deduce guilt. Given your theories they could have put AK's DNA on anything they wanted or they could have had Stef just whip a little up.

They thought she was guilty and they were trying to get her to buckle and tell them the truth. Somewhere in the ILE handbook they suggest taking suspects (common usage, not Italian technical legal sense) to scene of the crime.

There is an simpler and less sinister explanation for what Napoleoni was trying to accomplish when she asked Amanda what utensil would be good to use to kill someone.

Napoleoni may have asked Amanda which utensil to use in order to observe if Amanda quickly and directly picked out a knife that would be a good match to the one that left the 3.5" deep stab wounds. If Amanda had, for example, reached in and picked up a knife with a 3.5" or 4" blade, rather than a 14" knife or a butter knife or a frosting spreader, Napoleoni would have concluded Amanda reached for the right one because she knew what she was doing. As it was, Amanda had no idea what utensil to reach for, and she did not reach for any.
 
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This is not what I have been saying. Official misconduct in a US court would include, for example, character assassination of the defendant, as was done by the Italian prosecution and civil suit lawyers against Amanda Knox.

Can you give an example of a prosecution for character assassination? In US courts people generally can be prosecuted for perjury but such things as defamation are exempt. Anglo please chyme in.

Framing by police or prosecutor is only one kind of official misconduct, and it is not restricted to planting evidence. It may include, for example, soliciting false testimony or misrepresenting forensic evidence.

Actually I don't think there is a charge for framing as it is well documented it is slang or general labeled that way. In fact framing is probably one of the rarest forms of misconduct. Why don't you go find the list?

I'm sorry for your uninformed arguments on this topic, you often have had good arguments.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

ETA: Dictionary editors and their staff compile dictionaries by researching the use of words by people (in books, magazines, newspapers, scientific articles, court decisions, possibly other materials and media such as movies, TV, and online articles). If judges and defendants use "framing" to describe some kinds of alleged official misconduct against suspects or defendants, it is thus a use of that word in the English language.

Well it seems that information hasn't reached them because all the major dictionaries agree with me. Might the definition change sometime? Sure if lazy thinkers use it incorrectly enough it will lose its meaning as sadly peruse has.

What is your problem in not understanding that NO ONE IS SAYING THAT FRAMING ISN'T MISCONDUCT. FRAMING IS MISCONDUCT. That isn't at issue. You are losing all contact with reality. Chris' definition mentions police framing after saying making up stuff for a false charge.
 
Can you give an example of a prosecution for character assassination? In US courts people generally can be prosecuted for perjury but such things as defamation are exempt. Anglo please chyme in.

snip

Certainly, old bean

Chyme (/kaɪm/; from Greek χυμός khymos, "juice") is the semifluid mass of partly digested food that is expelled by the stomach into the duodenum and moves through the intestines during digestion.

You want me to vomit over this conversation? :boggled:
 
There is an simpler and less sinister explanation for what Napoleoni was trying to accomplish when she asked Amanda what utensil would be good to use to kill someone.

Napoleoni may have asked Amanda which utensil to use in order to observe if Amanda quickly and directly picked out a knife that would be a good match to the one that left the 3.5" deep stab wounds. If Amanda had, for example, reached in and picked up a knife with a 3.5" or 4" blade, rather than a 14" knife or a butter knife or a frosting spreader, Napoleoni would have concluded Amanda reached for the right one because she knew what she was doing. As it was, Amanda had no idea what utensil to reach for, and she did not reach for any.


Some have suggested that the police were trying to frame Amanda by getting her to leave fingerprints on the knives in the cottage. But Amanda says in her testimony that they gave her gloves when they went upstairs to look at the knives.

The real question is: Why were they having Amanda look at these knives? The answer to that is they didn't care a damn about the knives, they were looking for how Amanda reacted.

But what possible reaction would have been a sign of Amanda's innocence? If she picked an inappropriate knife the prosecution would present this in court as Amanda being deceptive. If she picked a short knife the prosecution would use this in court as evidence that Amanda had knowledge of the short knife that left a stain on the bed. If Amanda had picked a long knife the prosecution would show the court the similarity between that knife and the one collected at Raffaele's place. If she picks no knife or has a breakdown the prosecution would tell the court that Amanda has guilty knowledge of the crime.

There is no innocent explanation the police could provide for requesting that Amanda look at these knives. They already had statements from Laura and Filomena that these were knives they didn't use. Amanda may not have even seen these knives in the short time she had been staying at the cottage.
 
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You guys are free to use the word frame however you like, it's none of my business. You can even use all the other definitions of the word frame and apply them to this case if you want to be really confusing like carbonjam.

All I'm saying is, if you go around bandying about phrases like "Amanda and Raff were framed", don't be surprised to get some supplemental incredulous questions, or be accused of being a conspiracy theorist. That is all.
 
I never really grasped the Schrodinger's cat paradox, but I think this may be relevant. Open the box and the cat is dead or alive. Find the truth and the suspect was either framed or not framed.
 
You guys are free to use the word frame however you like, it's none of my business. You can even use all the other definitions of the word frame and apply them to this case if you want to be really confusing like carbonjam.

All I'm saying is, if you go around bandying about phrases like "Amanda and Raff were framed", don't be surprised to get some supplemental incredulous questions, or be accused of being a conspiracy theorist. That is all.

1. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were subjected to clearly apparent police misconduct beginning on Nov. 5, 2007 with a police interrogation that violated Italian procedural law and ECHR case-law, due to failure to provide the legally mandated cautions, failure to provide counsel, and failure to provide a fair interpreter. There was a violation of the Convention prohibition against inhuman and degrading treatment.


2. There was clearly apparent police and prosecution misconduct in the failure, not corrected by the Italian courts, to produce all relevant information, including descriptions of test methods, faithful descriptions of samples and controls tested, DNA quantification results, DNA profile results, and raw DNA profile data (EDFs) which would provide a fair "best evidence" record of equipment settings and test results, resulting in a denial of potentially exculpatory information from the police forensic lab. Furthermore, a non-validated novel LCN DNA test method was used in a lab not equipped to conduct LCN DNA testing, and which did not show evidence of adequate contamination control.

The introduction in court of circumstantial evidence - the LCN DNA alleged results - was a violation of Italian procedural law that such evidence must be serious, precise, and consistent.

There was a violation of ECHR case-law mandating the provision of all necessary facilities for the defense. ECHR case-law states that all information gathered by the police and prosecution that may assist the defense, such as exculpatory evidence or evidence that would allow the impeachment of inculpatory evidence must be provided to the defense.

3. There are other instances of misconduct, such as the misrepresentation of the luminol data and late disclosure of the TMB testing for the footprints, destruction of computer hard drives, misleading analysis of the mat footprint, and failure to test or report the presumed semen stain on the pillow.

4. The list above does not include all the instances of misconduct.

5. The CSC final judgment found that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were innocent.

6. One may conclude that the instances of misconduct were intended to "frame" innocent persons. Since the CSC judgment was that the defendants were innocent, it is apparent that the frame was unsuccessful.
 
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