Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Just to play "devil's advocate" for a while. Suppose Rudy's statement is broadly true. He is waiting outside the cottage. Mez arrives and asks, "Have you been waiting long?"

Rudy is waiting for Amanda who owes him money for drugs. Whilst there, he is offered Fanta from the fridge and he and Mez chat - after all, Rudy did claim to know Mez' mother was seriously ill in England. Suppose they did get romantic and indulged in foreplay. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors? However, there are no condoms, so it doesn't go further.

Amanda arrives. Rudy demands his money. His kebab starts making rumbling noises so he goes to the bathroom.

In the meantime, Amanda asks Mez to borrow it. Mez gives her short shrift. Amanda forcibly steals the cash from Mez' drawer. Raf turns up whilst Rudy is on the loo playing his ipod.

Mez is still vociferous towards Amanda. Raf restrains her and the pair pull knives on her.

They flee after the killing. Rudy comes out just in time to bump into Raf. He applies towels to Mez, etc. This accounts for bloody handprint and footprints, etc.

Of course, as the judge says, Rudy's story is highly implausible. However, to ignore all DNA evidence means to deny justice to one of the perps and also the victim, if indeed all were involved.

You are not lpaying "devil's advocate". You are a garden-variety guilter who wants to shoehorn two innocents into a crime which is readily explainable by the actions of one man- Rudy Guede. All this, and there is no evidence at all, and plenty of counter evidence, to reject your "theory/fantasy".

This is over, Vixen. The Italian court system finally figured this out. The March 27 12015 ISC (IMO) looked at the two convicting courts and decided they were taking shoddy evidence and coming up with shoddy conclusions.

Like it or not, the public comments of Hellmann actually do describe this case against AK and RS, now withdrawn. Your concern should now be with the Kerchers, who deserve the truth about the death of their lived-one.

You are not providing it. You are continuing to abuse the Kerchers, among others.

 

[Dan O.]

Amanda thinks there "might have been an intruder" but doesn't even mention it to Raf until over an hour later, after breakfast?

Show your timeline.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think he was saying that it was staged not that it wasn't a burglary because ultimately nothing was taken but perhaps Follain or Massei has more detail.

Your two favourite true-crime authors!

 

[Grinder]

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Grinder,
Thanks for these details.

It is possible Mignini didn't start framing the kids (or whoever else he would want to frame) until Nov. 3 or 4.

When do you believe the Nov. 5/6 interrogations were planned? Do you believe, as some have suggested, that they were not planned a day or two in advance, but were set up Nov. 5 and motivated as a retaliation against Raffaele for his phone comment to his dad that the police were stupid?

Louie Numbers I think it is highly improbable that Mignini started framing the kids, if he ever did, until well after the 5th/6th.

I think the interrogations were planned the day they happened. Don't know about retaliation. I think they genuinely suspected one or both of them for many reasons.

 

[Dan O.]

That's not exactly right. Battistelli took a look at Filomena's room and said, "This is no burglary," which it wasn't. At that time before opening Meredith's door, Battistelli could have meant many things....

Is there a confirming witness statement or contemporaneous documentation that shows Battistelli said or thought that in the first investigation? Much of this so called evidence could be back filled by Mignini questioning the investigators after the pair had been arrested.

 

[anglolawyer]

Why would the posties "freak out"? They are hardly the sharpest cards in the pack.

I adopt the replies given already by Kauffer and Grinder. You require an innocent Amanda armed with less information to be more aware than professional police officers. As I said, your incredulity is unreasonable and excessively informed by hindsight.

 

[anglolawyer]

Louie Numbers I think it is highly improbable that Mignini started framing the kids, if he ever did, until well after the 5th/6th.

I think the interrogations were planned the day they happened. Don't know about retaliation. I think they genuinely suspected one or both of them for many reasons.

Let's all try to get by without these, shall we? Who else's thoughts are you conveying? Its not only you. Thanks in advance.

More importantly, the framing does not have to be laid at Mignini's door. The cops might be responsible with Mignini as their dupe, albeit one not above conniving in an illegal interrogation or three.

 

[analemma]

Amanda thinks there "might have been an intruder" but doesn't even mention it to Raf until over an hour later, after breakfast?

Oh MY GOD
This proves the American Witch is guilty of Everything!!!!
The Witch kidnapped the Lindberg Baby, liqudated Jimmy Hoffa, wasted Tupac and Biggie, stabbed Azaria Chamberlain, conspired with the Boston marathon bombers, and jinxed Migninis mother into bearing the psychotic ranting maniac who was tranformed by the devine spirit into Micheal the ArchAngel so he could rise up with his host of thugs and do honorable holy battle with the Cartwheeling Nerdy Assassin from the Deans List of the University of Washington.
I think that Vixen is finally taking us somewhere.

 

[Grinder]

Let's all try to get by without these, shall we? Who else's thoughts are you conveying? Its not only you. Thanks in advance.

More importantly, the framing does not have to be laid at Mignini's door. The cops might be responsible with Mignini as their dupe, albeit one not above conniving in an illegal interrogation or three.

Please review the post I was responding to. I was asked what was possible and what I believed.

Apologies accepted in advance

 

[Grinder]

Please review the post I was responding to. I was asked what was possible and what I believed.

Apologies accepted in advance

At times, foreign to you perhaps, comments are relating facts

 

[Numbers]

Let's all try to get by without these, shall we? Who else's thoughts are you conveying? Its not only you. Thanks in advance.

More importantly, the framing does not have to be laid at Mignini's door. The cops might be responsible with Mignini as their dupe, albeit one not above conniving in an illegal interrogation or three.

This could be, but Mignini was (by law) directing the police in their investigation.

It is important to remember Mignini's record (MOF, Narducci, etc.).

The blatant official misconduct seems to have begun with the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, but is there any available information to show official misconduct in this case before that? Kauffer suggested, IIUC, that Amanda's questionings before Nov. 5 were excessive, and that she should have been cautioned as a suspect during those questionings. Kauffer pointed out that the police, in her words, warned her that she would be in trouble if caught in a lie. The police summaries of these questionings (on amandaknoxcase.com) do not include that wording or many details that may have been in the questionings. When was the first questioning that she should have been cautioned as a suspect?

 

[sept79]

The prosecution never introduced any confirmatory* blood test evidence. The only possible legally relevant conclusion is that the foot prints in question were not blood. *A confirmatory test being, for example, an antigen-antibody test, which is the kind known to definitively identify human blood. Such commercially available tests have been discussed on the thread and are well-known to forensic specialists.

This succinct statement should end the discussion of the hallway footprints.

 

[carbonjam72]

So what? You made a claim that AFAIK is completely false. Mignini wasn't charged for accusing Spezi but rather for tapping the phones of LE and journalists. If there was a charge similar to what you claimed please source it.



There are many here that have Number's expertise as Number's made clear.



Hysterically funny but of course you just made this claim to explain why Mignini started a frame up immediately. I forget, was this to explain not taking the body temp, which as Numbers a body temp expert has agreed wouldn't have made significant difference?

I don't think PIP emulating PGP argument style helps.

Briefly, are you suggesting mignini and giuttari would have been investigated, indicted, and convicted at 1st trial anyway, had it not been for the debacle of Spezi' arrest and three week imprisonment, and the international ridicule that absurd arrest brought down on the Italian judiciary?

I think you may be over reading and over interpreting what I'm actually posting. You're attributing positions to me I haven't taken. I understand we differ on a few points.

 

[Grinder]

This could be, but Mignini was (by law) directing the police in their investigation.

It is important to remember Mignini's record (MOF, Narducci, etc.).

The blatant official misconduct seems to have begun with the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, but is there any available information to show official misconduct in this case before that? Kauffer suggested, IIUC, that Amanda's questionings before Nov. 5 were excessive, and that she should have been cautioned as a suspect during those questionings. Kauffer pointed out that the police, in her words, warned her that she would be in trouble if caught in a lie. The police summaries of these questionings (on amandaknoxcase.com) do not include that wording or many details that may have been in the questionings. When was the first questioning that she should have been cautioned as a suspect?

He joined the other cases well after the events at least the MOF, I think.

Misconduct doesn't equal framing.

Suspect in Italian terms is not is a very specific title.

 

[Kauffer]

Is there a confirming witness statement or contemporaneous documentation that shows Battistelli said or thought that in the first investigation? Much of this so called evidence could be back filled by Mignini questioning the investigators after the pair had been arrested.

We have this from Battistelli in testimony:

"it was a little topsy-turvy, in the sense that it was mostly … There was clothing out, thrown around a bit, and scattered pieces of glass. Glass pieces were on the floor and the curious thing, which stood out for me, is that these glass pieces were on top of the clothing. I noticed this to the point where I started playing with the notion, in the sense that I immediately said that for me this was a simulation of what I was seeing, basically this…The things that I noticed, the camera, the computer, if they played into the theory of a hypothetical burglary, I saw that inside the house practically everything was there. There was a laptop, a digital camera, things that can be easily taken, so…."

Raffaele also confirms Battistelli's contemporaneous thinking in HB, page 30, based on the apparent lack of theft of valuables.

Nevertheless, it remains open to possibility that investigators polluted each other's thinking whilst formulating theories.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, let me say what I think then.

As of 02 Nov, no framing. Same as of 03 and 04. Sometime in the period 05-08 Nov people started to go 'gulp' with the penny dropping more heavily in some heads than others. As more and more evidence did not come in, meaningful looks were exchanged and ties were loosened. They had, after all, driven to Capanne in a blaze of glory before the eyes of the entire *********** world and now they were afraid of looking like Coco the Clown.

They got them to crack once, they would crack again with a little pressure. Lob them in solitary, toss away the key and present them with some 'evidence' (snicker) and they would turn each other in and hopefully confirm once more what the cops knew to be true. Then it ran out of control a little.

I think.

 

[Numbers]

He joined the other cases well after the events at least the MOF, I think.

Misconduct doesn't equal framing.

Suspect in Italian terms is not is a very specific title.

{Highlighting added to quote.}

"Framing" by its definition is difficult to pin down in comparison to "official misconduct."

I have so far been unable to find a definition of "suspect" in the CCP (as in The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, ed. by Giuluz et al.). There is CCP Article 61 that states that a "suspect" has the same rights and safeguards as an "accused person". And CCP Article 60 states that a "suspect" becomes an "accused person" when he is charged with an offense.

Thus, if for example the ECHR, reading Giobbi's testimony, understands his statement that as soon as he perceived Amanda to move her hips when putting on shoe covers she became a person of special investigative interest (or words to that effect), meant that she became a suspect at that point, then ECHR could insist that she required a lawyer in subsequent questionings by Convention right. Certainly, then, she should have been cautioned and provided with a lawyer at the very beginning of the Nov. 5 interrogation.

Judge Matteini's comment that {essentially} Amanda's arrest and detention were (in part) justified by the arrival of her mother on Nov. 6, suggests that the interrogation, arrest, and detention were planned.

 

[Kauffer]

Well, let me say what I think then.

As of 02 Nov, no framing. Same as of 03 and 04. Sometime in the period 05-08 Nov people started to go 'gulp' with the penny dropping more heavily in some heads than others. As more and more evidence did not come in, meaningful looks were exchanged and ties were loosened. They had, after all, driven to Capanne in a blaze of glory before the eyes of the entire *********** world and now they were afraid of looking like Coco the Clown.

They got them to crack once, they would crack again with a little pressure. Lob them in solitary, toss away the key and present them with some 'evidence' (snicker) and they would turn each other in and hopefully confirm once more what the cops knew to be true. Then it ran out of control a little.

I think.

I'd say just after 5-8. When Kercher's vagina samples came back without Lumumba's DNA, proper investigators would have re-reviewed everything they thought they knew including the break in theory. I give credit to PLE for being genuine in their beliefs up to that point. Genuine but very misguided. But when the vagina DNA was then later still confirmed to belong to Guede, whose presence at the crime scene had now been confirmed, then their misguidedness becomes something more sinister again. Someone should have stopped the roller coaster - probably Ricciarelli, around the end of November at the latest.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm sorry, while I do believe that Amanda and Raffaele were legitimately considered suspects, I can't fathom why ANYONE actually believes that there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. WHY? Seriously WHY? I see Vixen and other guilters constantly cherry picking and instead of logically following the evidence, they interpret events through a fog of confirmation bias.

I don't understand their ignoring the short time that Amanda knew Raffaele, that Amanda barely knew Rudy, and there is really know reason that Amanda or Raffaele would want to kill Meredith. And there is no reason that Rudy would join in with people he barely knew in killing Meredith.

Now Vixen will blame it on Amanda and Raffaele's use of cannabis. This I think is nonsense and really either comes from a total misunderstanding of what cannabis does to people.

While INDIVIDUALS have been known to commit violent acts under the influence of drugs, there is no history really of groups of almost total strangers conspiring to commit murder.

This is where this case runs right off the rails. Things like this just don't happen.

 

[Vixen]

I see, so these professional police officers are not required to have shown a requisite level of suspicion after having been introduced to all of the evidence at the apartment outside Kercher's room, but 20 year old Amanda not having been immediately suspicious of murderous foul play within minutes of returning to the cottage and on considerably less evidence - she did not know about the break in - is itself suspicious? Why?

The evidence is of Amanda's growing sense of alarm - what she feels, her calls to her mother, Romanelli, Meredith and her conversation with Raffaelle. The postale police's attitude is a benchmark against which to judge the reasonableness of Amanda's behaviour and her proportionate response to each unfolding piece of information. She showed maturity.

Previously, you were celebrating the cleverness, qualifications and training of the police, though without evidence. Now, you're telling us that they were irreducibly stupid and thick.

As you no doubt are aware there are two police squads in Italy, postal police and the carabinieri, a quasi-military style Flying Squad.

Do you have an explanation for Amanda's claim in her email home she was so alarmed on coming home circa 10:30 to find the door swinging open, etc, that she was frantically banging on Mez' door, but later, she assured the postal police it was quite normal for Mez' door to be closed?

I feel deja vu coming on, don't tell me, the police misunderstood her Italian.