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Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Either a theory like yours will become accepted by historians, or that of the latest court.
I believe in a few years, one will become mainstream. There appears to be work in progress in the United Kingdom to reach a concensus. I find the wiki articles on murder tend to suggest the conclusions that the concensus on these ISF threads does. Interestingly, the wiki articles on this case are declarative in agreeing with the recent decision.

Out of curiosity, has any of the Italian speakers read the Italian language version of Wikipedia aND what it says about the Meredith Kerchief murder and Knox and Sollecito?
 
Out of curiosity, has any of the Italian speakers read the Italian language version of Wikipedia aND what it says about the Meredith Kerchief murder and Knox and Sollecito?
That is a very interesting question. I always imagined wiki entries were common across languages, but presumably translated.
I realise I have no idea how this works. We may have lost our Italians from the thread unfortunately.
 
That is a very interesting question. I always imagined wiki entries were common across languages, but presumably translated.
I realise I have no idea how this works. We may have lost our Italians from the thread unfortunately.

It just came to me. I don't think I've ever seen that discussed on any forum.
 
There was a knife and some bloodied tissues found in the bushes. Police ruled out that knife, as being too blunt.

Whoever did it, was aware of the need for a sharp knife. Police believe the murder weapon came from Raf's aptmt. It was either brought along to cook lunch earlier or it was brought from the aptmt during the evening. It would make sense to put it in a bag, as it is a criminal offence to carry a knife as a weapon.

ETA Leaving the mess in the loo, was another attempt at sheer theatre.

IIRC, several stab wounds were of equal depth and at least one showed surface bruising as would be made by the hilt of a knife. This indicates that a knife with a hilt was used and that the blade length was (approx.) equal to the depth of the blade penetration wounds. If that is correct, we have parameters of a knife used.
 
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The scenario laid out matches Curatolo seeing the kids in the plaza nude and bloody.

It also matches up with Nara's scream and running right after.

One thing I find curious where the idea came from that Mez was so popular or accomplished. She went out with british students she met there while Amanda hung out with locals and except for her roommates mostly guys. Meredith was starting to date the guy downstairs while Amanda was starting to date a guy she met at a concert.

I find it sad that PGP keep up the Mez was better than Amanda meme. It begs for a response but serves no purpose.

Who cares who was the most popular with the british girls?
 
The scenario laid out matches Curatolo seeing the kids in the plaza nude and bloody.

It also matches up with Nara's scream and running right after.

One thing I find curious where the idea came from that Mez was so popular or accomplished. She went out with british students she met there while Amanda hung out with locals and except for her roommates mostly guys. Meredith was starting to date the guy downstairs while Amanda was starting to date a guy she met at a concert.

I find it sad that PGP keep up the Mez was better than Amanda meme. It begs for a response but serves no purpose.

Who cares who was the most popular with the british girls?

The inner-workings of any extended peer-group is going to have "issues". For those of us well beyond those years it may seem silly, but even the elderly among is remember the life-defining teen-years when the slightest slight was earth-shattering. Well-aged people may scoff, but for people inside those echo-chambers of peer-groups, the nuances of everything takes on profound meaning.

It is had not been for the horrible murder, maybe all those young woman would, in their 40s or 50s, look back on things with a laugh - "I can't believe we were so serious about......" (fill in the blank.)
 
Out of curiosity, has any of the Italian speakers read the Italian language version of Wikipedia aND what it says about the Meredith Kerchief murder and Knox and Sollecito?

Running the Italian version through Google-translate provides a workable translation. At first blush it pretty much echoes the English version of Wikipedia. In the intro it basically summarizes what each court did, putting them along a timeline. Then it concludes with:

On 27 March 2015, the Supreme Court canceled without court sentences Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox for not having committed the crime, ending the court case.

The case is also mentioned internationally, for the great media coverage.​

Unless a real Italian speaker can spot things missed by Google Translate, it seems to be a fairly goot accounting as to what happened, legally speaking.
 
Here's a few summaries of those new witness statements:

Patrick Lumumba: I’ve never been to Amanda’s house. I’ve never met Meredith. (If he hadn’t ever met Meredith, how did he offer her a job?  )

Natalie Hayward: I don’t know anybody who didn’t like Meredith or who wished her harm. She never mentioned any situations that caused her concern. Also “Meredith confided to me that there was another boy even more handsome than Giacomo who lived there with them, but I wouldn’t be able to tell you his name because she never said it to me”. No mention of Amanda.

Amy Frost: says Meredith went to Le Chic sometimes. (Was Lumumba lying about not ever meeting Meredith?).

Giacomo Silenzi: had a relationship with Meredith for 3 weeks. They had sex the first time they got together, three times in the night. He didn’t know whether she had any other relationships – they had decided not to talk about their other previous relationships. They never argued and their relationship became more intense. He took hashish and so did Meredith. They often took it together. They would get the dope from the Perugian centre, on the steps in front of the churce on Piazza 9 Novembre. He doesn’t remember ever buying it together with Meredith. When he went to Porto San Giorgio I think on Tue 30th Oct and while there was never in touch with Meredith via phone or SMS. But then he says that on Wed 31st he sent an SMS to Meredith asking her to bring in a sheet that had been left outside and she responded that she would deal with it. He recalls that before leaving on the previous Monday he left the keys to his flat with Meredith, because his cat had an injury to an ear and needed it to be disinfected, so he asked Meredith to administer his medicine. Whenever one of the boys from downstairs knocked on the upstairs flat’s front door, usually the girl answering would ask who it was.

Sophie Purton and Robyn Butterworth: Neither mention Amanda in a negative light. Purton mentions meeting Amanda two weeks after Sophie's arrival in Perugia and in the beginning they went out together but later Amanda started working and meeting other people.

Elizabeth Lana: The bomb call came from the number 075-45159 which is a Fastweb number (fixed line) which is a Perugia number. She said the caller was male, it was received at 22:00, probably between 30 and 40 years old, and he had an accent that had a slight hint of Indian. The caller said "THERE'S A BOMB IN YOUR TOILET DON'T DO A WEE DON'T FLUSH AND GET OUT OF THE HOUSE BECAUSE IT COULD EXPLODE". In recent times they had often received calls, even during the middle of the night, where either the call when picked up would make a series of beep sounds and other times, especially during holiday periods, calls where the caller said nothing and put down the phone after they picked up, as if they were checking anyone was home. They had been burgled in the past, in 2003 and 2004 and another attempt in 2006. She doesn't say how long it took the Police to come and check nor does she mention their names. They checked inside the house and in the garden.

Jade Bidwell: acquaintance of Meredith – not a close friend. Meredith told her that Giacomo was not very reliable in the sense that he didn’t seem the faithful type because one evening Meredith called him when he’d said he’d be at home but she perceived that he was out somewhere.

Alison Conte: An American girl from California met Meredith two or three times. Was in the group of friends of Jade Bidwell. Mentions an Italian guy named Dante who she had a coffee with and after that found him a bit heavy-going, often waiting for her in the places she frequented. When Alison rejected his continuing advances he reacted aggressively and she became frightened.

Alessandro Biscarini: The son of Elisabetta Lana. Her mother called her the night she received the prank call and when he got there the Police had already left. He was in the garden the next day when he found a mobile phone and picked it up in a paper handkerchief. Around 11:45 her sister found the other phone. In the afternoon Police came again to their house to carry out an inspection saying that there had been some ugly developments. After the the Scientific Police arrived that took measurements.

Fiammetta Biscarini: Daughter of Elisabetta Lana, was at home when the prank call was received. She helped the police inspect the house and garden without finding anything. Found the second phone in the garden when she heard it ring. She has no idea who could have been responsible for the prank call. She was asked whether she knew somebody called Stefania to which she stated no.

Alessi Pisco: Spoke to Meredith a few times. She said to him that her relationship with her boyfriend wasn’t always a happy one, with highs and lows, because at times he was cold towards her and because they never went out together. Amongst others, he identifies an Albanian guy in a photo showed to him by the Police but doesn’t know his name.

Riccardo Luciani: Stated he and the downstairs group often met with the girls upstairs, either in their flat or downstairs, to chat or to play the guitar or to eat something together. Meredith called him one day (25th or 26th October) because Filomena was locked in her bathroom. He managed to get her out. As far as he knew, the relationship between Meredith and Giacomo was fine.

Marco Marzan: a cousin of Stefano Bonassi. He says they were all very good friends with the girls upstairs, and at times they went out and ate together, and sometimes to dance with Amanda and Meredith. Giacomo started going out with Meredith and their relationship was normal, there was a strong physical attraction, and he believes that Giacomo was the more infatuated. He excluded the possibility that other people could have had the keys to their apartment, except Meredith herself because she had to look after their cats.

Giulia Vecchiola: girlfriend of Marco Marzan. Giacomo said he was happy in his relationship with Meredith and that finally he was able to get over a hurdle where he hadn’t had a relationship with a girl.

Zakaria Nazli: Italian citizen, shares a flat with Hicham Khiri and is a good friend. He didn’t know Meredith and didn’t know if Hicham knew her.
 
Running the Italian version through Google-translate provides a workable translation. At first blush it pretty much echoes the English version of Wikipedia. In the intro it basically summarizes what each court did, putting them along a timeline. Then it concludes with:

​

Unless a real Italian speaker can spot things missed by Google Translate, it seems to be a fairly goot accounting as to what happened, legally speaking.

Thanks Bill, not sure I trust Google translate to understand nuances. But I'm guessing they are rewriting it as well.
 
There was a knife and some bloodied tissues found in the bushes. Police ruled out that knife, as being too blunt.

Whoever did it, was aware of the need for a sharp knife. Police believe the murder weapon came from Raf's aptmt. It was either brought along to cook lunch earlier or it was brought from the aptmt during the evening. It would make sense to put it in a bag, as it is a criminal offence to carry a knife as a weapon.

ETA Leaving the mess in the loo, was another attempt at sheer theatre.

I saw Mignini on camera not long ago claim that Amanda, 20 at the time of the murder, is very astute. Do you believe that she found Rudi's specimen in the toilet and deliberately decided to use it for theatrical effect with the responding police (Napoleoni)? Is this what you mean, above?
 
Boy were you ever right, Rose.

+1

ETA Vixen, if this is your theory of what happened, why on earth did you portray yourself as skeptical of both sides when you showed up here? As Grinder points out, you forgot Curatolo and Nara (despite spending several pages defending the former's credibility). You inhabit a fantasy world.
 
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Spontaneous statement by Mauro Palmieri in Rome (where he lives)
He received an SMS 31-Oct-2007 with the text “For me tomorrow or this evening Meredit dies” – note Meredith’s name was mis-spelled.
He didn’t know the number that sent it. He deleted the text and so wasn’t able to say what the number was.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...ess-deposition-Mauro-Palmieri-SMS-message.pdf
Do we have a page number between one and ten thousand for that court document?
 
+1

ETA Vixen, if this is your theory of what happened, why on earth did you portray yourself as skeptical of both sides when you showed up here? As Grinder points out, you forgot Curatolo and Nara (despite spending several pages defending the former's credibility). You inhabit a fantasy world.

Most of these fantasies have the drug crazed theme in there somewhere. The evidence shows the only thing they tested positive for is pot. Total fail. Maybe they just like to pretend.
 
Most of these fantasies have the drug crazed theme in there somewhere. The evidence shows the only thing they tested positive for is pot. Total fail. Maybe they just like to pretend.


No, no, no, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!11!!!

Konx and Knife-boy were heavy users of cocaine/LSD/amphetamines (delete or include entirely as you wish).

The only reason why the prosecution weren't able to prove this in court was that:

a) testing was done too soon for these drugs to show up
b) testing was done too late for these drugs to show up
c) there's probably some other really good reason why these drugs didn't show up
d) erm, that's it
 
Spontaneous statement by Mauro Palmieri in Rome (where he lives)
He received an SMS 31-Oct-2007 with the text “For me tomorrow or this evening Meredit dies” – note Meredith’s name was mis-spelled.
He didn’t know the number that sent it. He deleted the text and so wasn’t able to say what the number was.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...ess-deposition-Mauro-Palmieri-SMS-message.pdf



This was shown to be a reference to a character in a TV soap opera IIRC.
 
The scenario laid out matches Curatolo seeing the kids in the plaza nude and bloody.

It also matches up with Nara's scream and running right after.

One thing I find curious where the idea came from that Mez was so popular or accomplished. She went out with british students she met there while Amanda hung out with locals and except for her roommates mostly guys. Meredith was starting to date the guy downstairs while Amanda was starting to date a guy she met at a concert.

I find it sad that PGP keep up the Mez was better than Amanda meme. It begs for a response but serves no purpose.

Who cares who was the most popular with the british girls?


When I first started my online odyssey about this case on .org, I became quickly amazed - and intrigued - by the constant eulogising of Kercher (set, of course, against the constant demonisation of Knox and Sollecito). It seemed to me that many of the pro-guilt commentators had some sort of emotional need to paint Kercher as something far more than she actually was, and of course this gave me growing suspicions about the motivations and critical thinking skills of this group of commentators.

My intrigue and amazement led me to post on .org about the matter. I wrote a post which sought to point out that the perceived character and prospects of Kercher were essentially of no relevance to a discussion about this case, unless they had played a factor in (say) the relationship between Knox and Kercher. I made a reductio ad absurdum that it wouldn't have made any material difference if Kercher had been a "crack whore", and questioned the constant apparent need to eulogise Kercher.

Predictably, this was misinterpreted by most of the pro-guilt idiots commentators as me attempting to attack Kercher by "calling her a crack whore". And you can guess what happened from then on.... :)
 
When I first started my online odyssey about this case on .org, I became quickly amazed - and intrigued - by the constant eulogising of Kercher (set, of course, against the constant demonisation of Knox and Sollecito). It seemed to me that many of the pro-guilt commentators had some sort of emotional need to paint Kercher as something far more than she actually was, and of course this gave me growing suspicions about the motivations and critical thinking skills of this group of commentators.

My intrigue and amazement led me to post on .org about the matter. I wrote a post which sought to point out that the perceived character and prospects of Kercher were essentially of no relevance to a discussion about this case, unless they had played a factor in (say) the relationship between Knox and Kercher. I made a reductio ad absurdum that it wouldn't have made any material difference if Kercher had been a "crack whore", and questioned the constant apparent need to eulogise Kercher.

Predictably, this was misinterpreted by most of the pro-guilt idiots commentators as me attempting to attack Kercher by "calling her a crack whore". And you can guess what happened from then on.... :)
Yes.
Much later I got one post of 15 published, then guess what happened.
Someone may know whether the back catalogue is still available, I certainly don't.
 
Yes.
Much later I got one post of 15 published, then guess what happened.
Someone may know whether the back catalogue is still available, I certainly don't.

Let's take a survey. Who was expelled from another Kercher murder site such as .org?

So far, we have:
LondonJohn
Samson
 
This is pretty much what site administrator from PMF.net, Michael has written. I don't know how to do spoilers, so here it is:

"Just a thought out loud. As regular readers here will know, over the past year or so I have changed my mind about the murder from originally considering it to be a nasty prank/hazing gone wrong or gotten out of control, to premeditated murder. At least by Knox, and I felt "probably" also by Sollecito. I did not believe this was the case with Rudy and that remains the same. I have however, adjusted my view to now be certain in my own mind, that it was was also premeditated for Sollecito.

As some have may recall, I believe Rudy was only present at the start of the attack and for the sexual assault but was not present the whole way through. For a range of reasons, I adopted the theory that shortly after the sexual assault, which I think was mercifully brief (although, of course, still terrible for the victim just the same) and not carried out with any enthusiasm by Rudy, realising that this wasn't what he'd signed on for, wanted out and left Meredith's room to take up temporary residence in the large bathroom over the other side of the cottage. This transfer would have taken place before any blood was spilled. It was then some minutes later that Rudy was alerted by the scream, rnb from the bathroom to Meredith's room to be confronted by carnage.

I still hold to this theory. But, one element of it I am now questioning in light of my post a two posts upthread were certain pieces of the puzzle slotted into place for me. The element I am now questioning, is whether Rudy unilaterally removed himself from the room to the bathroom. I am now wondering, if he was actually instead sent by Knox and Knife Boy. I am asking this, as I feel Rudy was recruited to play a certain role and that was to help initiate the attack to subdue the victim and to then carry out a sexual assault (although, I feel the others wanted Rudy to go further then he did). Once that had happened, his job was done, he was no longer needed as the rest the other two could do themselves. Nor do I think was he was even wanted. He was not part of the pact and so at best, he would have been intruding on their final act. At worst, he could potentially have interfered or even tried to stop them, as he had not been told this was intended to be a murder. Moreover, Knox and Sollecito could feel safe in sending him elsewhere in the cottage and carry out their murder confident that Guede wouldn't later be volunteering information to the police, as they had made him take part in enough of the attack to ensure that under the strict definition of the law, he would be regarded as being as guilty as they (and there is no plea bargaining in the Italian system for felonies and capital crimes). It may still actually be the case that Rudy left the room unilaterally, but in that event, I feel that if he hadn't of done so of his own accord he would have been dismissed. He was never given a knife, as they never intended for him to be present or active in the final act.

There was one serious way the pair, who were in full control of the situation from the start of the attack right up to the murder itself, made a fatal error shortly after that would have ensured that eventually, they would be caught. I've never seen this discussed before now. This fatal error, was their failure to control Rudy in the immediate aftermath of the murder. Rudy attempted to help Meredith and in so doing, he got blood on his hands which he then transferred in the form of his fingerprints and DNA to the outside of Meredith's handbag while moving it and his bloody hand print with his fingerprints onto the pillow. In addition, his bloody shoe prints in the hall which while they specifically would not have the potential to lead to Knox and Sollecito being caught, they would provide important details about the context and narrative of the crime, which once they were caught, would contribute to convicting them. You see, the key evidence left at this point, was the DNA and fingerpints. Had Knox and Sollecito done a better job with their lies and alibis and so were not arrested on the 5th Nov, they still would have been doomed. All that was required was for either Guede's DNA or his fingerprints to be on file (it turned out, his fingerprints were indeed registered with his identity card application) then that would have directly led to Rudy's identification and arrest. Rudy's arrest would then have led to Knox and Sollecito's arrest, as one can bet facing the blame all alone he would have swiftly pointed the finger at them. As it turned out, this never needed to happen as Knox and Sollecito had failed to flesh out their alibis and they were arrested before Rudy. But it doesn't matter, even if they had of avoided arrest they were always doomed because they had made the mistake of allowing Guede to help Meredith and then right after, interact with items in the room leaving key evidence that would lead to his identification. This mistake, meant all their partial cleaning, staging and lies, even if dome competently enough to send the police off track, would always have eventually failed due to the presence of Rudy's fingerprints at the crime scene."


Samson, how does your theory work if Amanda and Raffaele never left his apartnent that evening/night?

What language did Amanda and Rudi communicate in?
 
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