Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

Not on my part.

Sorry, I should have attached one of Grinder's posts to preface mine.

Grinder wrote:
So they planted an amount of DNA so small it needed to be destroyed to test?

The clasp if planted was weeks later and certainly wouldn't prove an early on conspiracy. For many reasons I find it the most likely plant. ...

 

[Grinder]

Destroying potential exculpatory evidence has the same benefit to the prosecution as the failure to estimate a relatively accurate time of death. It allowed the prosecution flexibility in constructing a case out of false and irrelevant information.

Once again a PGP type of response. Since we do have the data going to 9:26 that most here argue puts the kids at home when Mez was attacked at 9:05 - 9:15 your response is specious.

You actually believe the police decided immediately to mask the TOD in order to prosecute someone?

The ILE is one incompetent group and mistakes were made left and right but no way they were setting up the evidence on Nov. 2 to make prosecution easier.

The TOD wouldn't have been more precise had her temperature been taken earlier after the coroner arrived. It was unknown what the temperature was inside overnight and how long the duvet was on her.

I find it as bizarre to think the police didn't want to get the perps that did this crime.

Btw, IIRC Raf said he emailed late at night well past the PIP TOD time.

I don't think there is any excuse for the PP computer work nor do I think it was done with purpose.

 

[Grinder]

Sorry, I should have attached one of Grinder's posts to preface mine.

Anglo is confused I'm not. But thanks for the concern.

ETA 1. Knife blade DNA
The LCN claimed associated with the knife blade was not necessarily on the knife blade, and was not necessarily planted. It could have been a contamination event of the kind that would be likely to occur in a lab that was not well-maintained with respect to freedom from contamination. In this hypothesis, many other samples would have been shown to contain low levels (LCN levels) of Meredith Kercher's DNA, had the EDFs been made available. In this hypothesis, the electropherograms shown for samples tested and made available to the defense were scaled to either not show or, in the case of the knife blade, to show this lab contamination. This would be the reason that EDFs of controls, including negative controls, were not provided.

This has been gone over here for years. One aspect you missed is that not all samples were put through the same testing rigor that the knife was. Had everything been tested the same way it is likely that more "DNA" would have been found.

You should go review the intense DNA discussions in previous threads.

 

[TruthCalls]

Once again a PGP type of response. Since we do have the data going to 9:26 that most here argue puts the kids at home when Mez was attacked at 9:05 - 9:15 your response is specious.

You actually believe the police decided immediately to mask the TOD in order to prosecute someone?
The ILE is one incompetent group and mistakes were made left and right but no way they were setting up the evidence on Nov. 2 to make prosecution easier.

The TOD wouldn't have been more precise had her temperature been taken earlier after the coroner arrived. It was unknown what the temperature was inside overnight and how long the duvet was on her.

I find it as bizarre to think the police didn't want to get the perps that did this crime.

Btw, IIRC Raf said he emailed late at night well past the PIP TOD time.

I don't think there is any excuse for the PP computer work nor do I think it was done with purpose.

Turn that around .. do you actually believe the police prevented body temp from being taken in order to preserve DNA evidence? Is there even one other example of the ILE not taking body temp in order to preserve DNA evidence? How was taking body temp ever going to destroy DNA evidence anyway?

TOD would definitely have been more precise had body temp been taken right away. There are calculations used to account for estimated ambient temperature, body being under a duvet, etc. It's a SOP for all forensic police to take body temperature asap. What the motivation would be for not doing this is certainly not obvious. It happened way to early for any "frame the American" conspiracy to make sense. Perhaps the motive was more simple than we think... Mignini knew he needed a quick solution to the crime and failing to take the body temperature gave him greater flexibility in setting of TOD, which gives him greater flexibility in finding his man - or woman.

 

[Numbers]

Once again a PGP type of response. 1. Since we do have the data going to 9:26 that most here argue puts the kids at home when Mez was attacked at 9:05 - 9:15 your response is specious.
2. You actually believe the police decided immediately to mask the TOD in order to prosecute someone?

The ILE is one incompetent group and mistakes were made left and right but no way they were setting up the evidence on Nov. 2 to make prosecution easier.

3. The TOD wouldn't have been more precise had her temperature been taken earlier after the coroner arrived. It was unknown what the temperature was inside overnight and how long the duvet was on her.

2, again. I find it as bizarre to think the police didn't want to get the perps that did this crime.

1, again. Btw, IIRC Raf said he emailed late at night well past the PIP TOD time.

4. I don't think there is any excuse for the PP computer work nor do I think it was done with purpose.

{Highlighting and reference numbers added to quotes.}

Grinder,

1. You are arguing backwards from what is known now, not from the point of view of the investigators on Nov. 2, 2007, when Meredith's body was discovered. You are using a post hoc "suspect-oriented" argument.

2. I believe the police at the direction of PM Mignini or Napoleone decided not to obtain a body temperature in order to get maximum flexibility in finding a "convenient suspect". They may have hoped that the convenient suspect was also the murderer, but that might not have been the primary concern of a prosecutor such as Mignini. Consider his record.

3. Taking the body temp is routine for homicide cases. There are ways to estimate a TOD range based on the body temp and the estimated ambient temperature and effects of coverings. IIUC, these are common issues not unique to this case.

4. Whether or not the computer disk frying exercise was intended or not, it had the effect of destroying potentially exculpatory information. At some point, police incompetence can be so severe that it has the same effect on the defense as police misconduct. This case has a plethora of incompetence, misconduct, and possibly misconduct pretending to be incompetence.

 

[Numbers]

....

This has been gone over here for years. One aspect you missed is that not all samples were put through the same testing rigor that the knife was. Had everything been tested the same way it is likely that more "DNA" would have been found.
You should go review the intense DNA discussions in previous threads.

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Grinder,
Could you explain what your statement regarding "testing rigor" means in operational terms? Exactly what extra "rigor" was used for the knife?

Are you aware that Stefanoni's quantification results, provided to the defense, for the knife blade show "too low", which for the Qubit fluorometer used in that quantification, may indicate that there was no DNA in the sample?

 

[Grinder]

Turn that around .. do you actually believe the police prevented body temp from being taken in order to preserve DNA evidence? Is there even one other example of the ILE not taking body temp in order to preserve DNA evidence? How was taking body temp ever going to destroy DNA evidence anyway?

How many cases depend on minutes of difference for an alibi? I'd say in these circumstances DNA, prints, hairs etc. were more important than body temp 15 hours after death. As stated above without knowing the temp in the house and whether or not the duvet was put on immediately or later the body temp would not have given a more precise TOD than we have anyway.

It wasn't the police that delayed it btw. It is ludicrous to posit that the temp wasn't taken in order to frame someone for the crime.

Exactly why Mignini delayed, not prevented, the temp being taken is unknown AFAIK.

TOD would definitely have been more precise had body temp been taken right away. There are calculations used to account for estimated ambient temperature, body being under a duvet, etc. It's a SOP for all forensic police to take body temperature asap. What the motivation would be for not doing this is certainly not obvious. It happened way to early for any "frame the American" conspiracy to make sense. Perhaps the motive was more simple than we think... Mignini knew he needed a quick solution to the crime and failing to take the body temperature gave him greater flexibility in setting of TOD, which gives him greater flexibility in finding his man - or woman.

I disagree that the temp would have narrowed the TOD time as for the reasons stated above. Why did Mignini "need a quick solution"?

Sorry but it all looks like incompetence rather than some planned out method to give more latitude to later frame someone.

 

[Desert Fox]

Anglo is confused I'm not. But thanks for the concern.

ETA 1. Knife blade DNA
The LCN claimed associated with the knife blade was not necessarily on the knife blade, and was not necessarily planted. It could have been a contamination event of the kind that would be likely to occur in a lab that was not well-maintained with respect to freedom from contamination. In this hypothesis, many other samples would have been shown to contain low levels (LCN levels) of Meredith Kercher's DNA, had the EDFs been made available. In this hypothesis, the electropherograms shown for samples tested and made available to the defense were scaled to either not show or, in the case of the knife blade, to show this lab contamination. This would be the reason that EDFs of controls, including negative controls, were not provided.

This has been gone over here for years. One aspect you missed is that not all samples were put through the same testing rigor that the knife was. Had everything been tested the same way it is likely that more "DNA" would have been found.

You should go review the intense DNA discussions in previous threads.

One way one might think of it is that they thought they had the guilty party. They produced enough evidence that they thought they could convict and stopped. They really were not interested with what the crime scene and evidence really argued. They operated from the beginning from their own preconceived notions.

 

[Grinder]

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Grinder,
Could you explain what your statement regarding "testing rigor" means in operational terms? Exactly what extra "rigor" was used for the knife?

Are you aware that Stefanoni's quantification results, provided to the defense, for the knife blade show "too low", which for the Qubit fluorometer, may indicate that there was no DNA in the sample?

Numbers please go back and read the thread where all this was gone over and by experts. Yes a that point other tests were terminated. Please provide other samples where "too low" was the reading and she continued.

The knife IIRC had more amplification than other samples. While other tests were ended earlier she didn't give up on the knife until she found a profile. Had the same methodology been applied to other samples IIRC the speculation was that they too might have produced profiles.

 

[Grinder]

{Highlighting and reference numbers added to quotes.}

Grinder,

1. You are arguing backwards from what is known now, not from the point of view of the investigators on Nov. 2, 2007, when Meredith's body was discovered. You are using a post hoc "suspect-oriented" argument.

2. I believe the police at the direction of PM Mignini or Napoleone decided not to obtain a body temperature in order to get maximum flexibility in finding a "convenient suspect". They may have hoped that the convenient suspect was also the murderer, but that might not have been the primary concern of a prosecutor such as Mignini. Consider his record.
3. Taking the body temp is routine for homicide cases. There are ways to estimate a TOD range based on the body temp and the estimated ambient temperature and effects of coverings. IIUC, these are common issues not unique to this case.

4. Whether or not the computer disk frying exercise was intended or not, it had the effect of destroying potentially exculpatory information. At some point, police incompetence can be so severe that it has the same effect on the defense as police misconduct. This case has a plethora of incompetence, misconduct, and possibly misconduct pretending to be incompetence.

I'm sure you will be able to find scores of cases before ECHR where the ILE did similar things to make their work easier.

You are backwards in that who could have known that a few minutes might make a difference in alibi. Had Raf had a call or two on his land line and Amanda posting stuff to MySpace or had they gone out to a club or been with friends the wider time would have done them no good.

Of course body temp is commonly taken as early as is convenient.

This is just nutty They wanted a wider time frame to get the real killer because why?

Is it the case that the PLE never took body temps as they would always want more latitude?

 

[Strozzi]

I don't know how many times I have to say it. Nothing was 'planted' if you mean by that 'daubed on the bra hooks or knife blade'. Stefanoni produced a couple of graphs, that's all. Such is my theory. And either my theory is correct or she did indeed hole her second to the 18th to make the play off and then hole in one at the first extra hole.

Since you are famous for being certain they are innocent, what do you think the odds are that just about the only knife they tested, which, you say, had nothing whatever to do with the crime, showed up an incriminating profile?

The cops don't know how to do LCN 'planting' but Stef knows that LCN = unrepeatable and that's how she fixed it. IMHO.

Stefanoni really was a valuable player to support Mignini. Imagine what might have happened if she had been away on a 2-week cruise starting in mid-December, just as the police and Mignini learned from wiretaps of the Sollecito family members's phones that Dr. Sollecito (a real Dr., by the way) had located the model of shoe worn by Rudi and it proved Raffaele was innocent of the shoeprint claim.

With Stefanoni away on a 2-week cruise, another lab worker might have returned to the house and, being handed the bra clasp by another police official who pulled it out from under the rug, declared on camera "I cannot accept that as evidence because it has been moved around this dirty floor for six weeks, it's been stepped on, and you have not used sterile tweezers to pick it up".

Or, if not that, the lab tech back in the Rome lab might have cleaned the lab test instrument, tested the clasp, and found nothing on the hooks except Meredith's DNA. He might have even stored the bra clasp in a dry collection envelope or container so it could be tested a second time to verify again that no male DNA was on the clasp. Then Mignini might have had to admit that no male touched the clasp, leading him to wonder if Rudi removed the bra by pulling on the strap rather than undoing it.

Good thing for Perugian justice that Stefanoni was not away on a 2-week cruise starting in mid-December 2007!

 

[Numbers]

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Grinder,
Could you explain what your statement regarding "testing rigor" means in operational terms? Exactly what extra "rigor" was used for the knife?

Are you aware that Stefanoni's quantification results, provided to the defense, for the knife blade show "too low", which for the Qubit fluorometer used in that quantification, may indicate that there was no DNA in the sample?

Numbers please go back and read the thread where all this was gone over and by experts. Yes a that point other tests were terminated. Please provide other samples where "too low" was the reading and she continued.

The knife IIRC had more amplification than other samples. While other tests were ended earlier she didn't give up on the knife until she found a profile. Had the same methodology been applied to other samples IIRC the speculation was that they too might have produced profiles.

If I understand your terminology, you are calling the additional replication steps that Stefanoni applied "testing rigor". I agree that she is reported to have used additional replications in a procedure of her own invention - that was not validated - on the knife blade sample. The use of additional replications would of course serve to make any trace (LCN or contaminant) DNA more readily detectable. I am unaware if she used that technique or procedure on other "too low" samples; many "too low" samples were either not DNA profiled, or if profiled, not reported.

I personally would hesitate to describe use of a procedure that had not been validated as showing "testing rigor" and I suspect that others with an engineering or science background would also be hesitant to use that description. But I would certainly agree that not all samples were put through the same testing procedure.

ETA: A definition of rigor - for scientific, technical, mathematical, or logical "rigor"
strict precision : exactness <logical rigor>
(from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rigor)

 

[RoseMontague]

Exactly why Mignini delayed, not prevented, the temp being taken is unknown AFAIK.

He blamed it on Stefi asking him not to let anyone disturb the body, something he admitted was a mistake (IIRC in the Mignini-Graham interview).

 

[RoseMontague]

No pics wouldn't prove anything except they took pictures. What did they use t take these pictures? Phone? Camera? Why weren't they posted on MySpace?

So the PP somehow knew the contents would be exculpatory and destroyed them on their own because they wanted to convict innocent people?

Camera. Amanda said that pictures of her and Meredith were on that camera (picture of which has been posted at IA in connection to her search warrant-copy also posted at IA). She can now ask for her property back including her computer and camera.

 

[Numbers]

I'm sure you will be able to find scores of cases before ECHR where the ILE did similar things to make their work easier.

1. You are backwards in that who could have known that a few minutes might make a difference in alibi. 2. Had Raf had a call or two on his land line and Amanda posting stuff to MySpace or had they gone out to a club or been with friends the wider time would have done them no good.
Of course body temp is commonly taken as early as is convenient.

This is just nutty 3. They wanted a wider time frame to get the real killer because why?

Is it the case that the PLE never took body temps as they would always want more latitude?

{Highlighting, bold and numbering added to quote.}

1. You are inserting as my intent a remark about minutes in the TOD estimate. TOD estimates are rarely so precise. IIUC, the police and prosecutor waited about 1 day for a body temp reading, which led to an extremely wide TOD range estimate. That is bad forensic practice.

2. You are using a retrospective suspect-oriented argument. Immediately when the body was discovered, the police and prosecution would have no knowledge of the information regarding Raf and Amanda you mention.

3. Where did you pull this statement from? I am saying that the corrupt prosecutor desires a wider range for TOD in order to get a conviction of a "convenient suspect" who may or may not be the actual criminal. The point is for the (corrupt) prosecutor to get the conviction.

 

[Grinder]

If I understand your terminology, you are calling the additional replication steps that Stefanoni applied "testing rigor". I agree that she is reported to have used additional replications in a procedure of her own invention that was not validated on the knife blade sample. The use of additional replications would of course serve to make any trace (LCN or contaminant) DNA more readily detectable. I am unaware if she used that technique or procedure on other "too low" samples; many "too low" samples were either not DNA profiled, or if profiled, not reported.

I personally would hesitate to describe use of a procedure that had not been validated as showing "testing rigor" and I suspect that others with an engineering or science background would also be hesitant to use that description. But I would certainly agree that not all samples were put through the same testing procedure.

Rigor was a sarcastic term in context but if not obvious I see your problem with it. To be clear I think Rose's <Dr. is appropriate and I've use Stefaphony in the past. I think she thinks she found MK's DNA and is just a lousy technician.

It is important to note that Novelli backed her as well as other Italian science people. The whole "contamination must be proven" discussion is mind blowing and makes one wonder about the mental state of Italians.

Steffi's work was so obviously bad it just doesn't make sense that it is part of conspiracy to frame.

 

[Grinder]

He blamed it on Stefi asking him not to let anyone disturb the body, something he admitted was a mistake (IIRC in the Mignini-Graham interview).

Sounds right. I still say had they done it it wouldn't have narrowed the time frame much.

 

[anglolawyer]

Anglo is confused I'm not. But thanks for the concern.

ETA 1. Knife blade DNA
The LCN claimed associated with the knife blade was not necessarily on the knife blade, and was not necessarily planted. It could have been a contamination event of the kind that would be likely to occur in a lab that was not well-maintained with respect to freedom from contamination. In this hypothesis, many other samples would have been shown to contain low levels (LCN levels) of Meredith Kercher's DNA, had the EDFs been made available. In this hypothesis, the electropherograms shown for samples tested and made available to the defense were scaled to either not show or, in the case of the knife blade, to show this lab contamination. This would be the reason that EDFs of controls, including negative controls, were not provided.

This has been gone over here for years. One aspect you missed is that not all samples were put through the same testing rigor that the knife was. Had everything been tested the same way it is likely that more "DNA" would have been found.

You should go review the intense DNA discussions in previous threads.

Anglo is not confused! Your Italicised scenario supports my case, not yours.

 

[Grinder]

Camera. Amanda said that pictures of her and Meredith were on that camera (picture of which has been posted at IA in connection to her search warrant-copy also posted at IA). She can now ask for her property back including her computer and camera.

Can't wait to see the photos.

 

[Grinder]

3. Where did you pull this statement from? I am saying that the corrupt prosecutor desires a wider range for TOD in order to get a conviction of a "convenient suspect" who may or may not be the actual criminal. The point is for the (corrupt) prosecutor to get the conviction.

The actual criminal is not a "convenient suspect" he is THE suspect and guilty and no wider range would be needed.

It should be easy to get a host of cases that will prove that the PLE under Mignini delayed temp test etc. as a regular possibly.