Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Anode]

And the forensic police frying the computer drives one at a time?
And the shoe print and foot print experts?

And the cell phone experts?

And the bogus witnesses?

Aren't they all just doing their bit in their one area of activity?

But its all done to please Mignini. Everybody doesn't need to know what everyone else is doing, only Mignini needs to know that.

So is that still a conspiracy? Or just a runaway prosecutor abusing his office.

Either Mignini is coordinating or inducing all these actions, or he is a dupe of massively parallel incompetence that all just happens to support a conviction.

Did they really fry them one at a time or did they hook them up to the same interface in parallel? Frying them one at time is pretty darn incompetent.

 

[Bill Williams]

Did they really fry them one at a time or did they hook them up to the same interface in parallel? Frying them one at time is pretty darn incompetent.

It's a level of incompetence which makes one go.............. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is a little like our PGP poster.

Name one piece of evidence that was planted.

Provide a source for your earlier remark about Mignini getting from Rome what he needed beyond the obvious fact that the lab results had to come from Rome.

What is soft framing? They could have planted blood on the footprints but they didn't. They could have put blood on the knife but they didn't. They could have found blood in Raf's place but they didn't.

They could have put Raf's DNA on the bra clasp without others there as well. The video of the collection was broadcast to the van outside where the defense experts could see what was going on, which to me explains the show and tell format.

Was Massei part of the conspiracy?

It's just business as usual. The cops solve cases by getting people to confess or accuse others. The prosecutors win cases by gaming the system, getting buddy buddy with the judges, tapping everybody's phones, threatening journalists and experts that don't agree with the case with charges, & both control the flow of information to the public, making them look good and the accused look bad. The scientific police, people like Steffi know their job is to find evidence of guilt and suppress evidence of innocence.

That's the system, and overcoming it is a battle.

 

[carbonjam72]

Did they really fry them one at a time or did they hook them up to the same interface in parallel? Frying them one at time is pretty darn incompetent.

Raf's book says it happened 3 times in a row, not all at once. They had 3 accidents or fryings, one after another after another, (or 4?).

 

[Strozzi]

Raf's book says it happened 3 times in a row, not all at once. They had 3 accidents or fryings, one after another after another, (or 4?).

Didn't the police techs also use Raf's computer to surf the web? That suggests unprofessionalisn (incompetence), not cunning.

Unless their incompetence was staged - to conceal the deliberate nature of their erasure of the suspects' computer alibi. .

Vixen, from your perspective what do you think it was? incompetence or cunning?

 

[acbytesla]

Did they really fry them one at a time or did they hook them up to the same interface in parallel? Frying them one at time is pretty darn incompetent.

I'm 95 percent sure it was consecutively. The device used IIRC is designed that way.

But it's probably not evident that you are frying them while you are cloning the drives. They probably just show up as corrupted and the tech just keeps on swapping the drives not aware that he is the reason for the corruption.

 

[carbonjam72]

I'm 95 percent sure it was consecutively. The device used IIRC is designed that way.

But it's probably not evident that you are frying them while you are cloning the drives. They probably just show up as corrupted and the tech just keeps on swapping the drives not aware that he is the reason for the corruption.

That's a theory, certainly possible. But its purely speculative, and it assumes a level of incompetence that has no support in the record I'm aware of.

It's so much easier to believe these mistakes are all accidental.

Was Stef storing the bra clasp in an extraction fluid so that it would rust and prevent retesting also just a goof the tech didn't realize they were doing?

I don't know I'm ready to do the full Rose Monty here, but there is a consistency of flubbery that cannot be ignored.

 

[Numbers]

Does this help?

271. The Court has repeatedly stressed the importance of administering justice without delays which might jeopardise its effectiveness and credibility (Scordino v. Italy (no. 1) [GC], § 224).An accumulation of breaches by the State constitutes a practice that is incompatible with the Convention (Bottazzi v. Italy [GC], § 22).

Kauffer,

Thanks, those cites are useful. There is also Michelioudakis v. Greece 54447/10, a criminal case which ended in a final acquittal after seven years of trials, where the ECHR stated:

2. Holds that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention;

3. Holds that there has been a violation of Article 13 of the Convention;

4. Holds that the above violations result from a malfunction of the internal legal system consisting of the excessive length of proceedings before the criminal courts and in the absence in domestic law of a remedy enabling interested parties to get sanction of their right to have their case heard within a reasonable time;

The full text of the cited paragraph from Scordino v. Italy (no. 1) [GC] 36813/97, a claim of violation of Article 6.1 based upon a civil case, is relevant:

224. The Court emphasises once again that Article 6 § 1 of the Convention obliges the Contracting States to organise their legal systems so as to enable the courts to comply with its various requirements. It wishes to reaffirm the importance of administering justice without delays which might jeopardise its effectiveness and credibility (see Bottazzi, cited above, § 22). Italy’s position in this regard has not changed sufficiently to call into question the conclusion that this accumulation of breaches constitutes a practice that is incompatible with the Convention.

 

[anglolawyer]

This is a little like our PGP poster.

Name one piece of evidence that was planted.
Provide a source for your earlier remark about Mignini getting from Rome what he needed beyond the obvious fact that the lab results had to come from Rome.

What is soft framing? They could have planted blood on the footprints but they didn't. They could have put blood on the knife but they didn't. They could have found blood in Raf's place but they didn't.

They could have put Raf's DNA on the bra clasp without others there as well. The video of the collection was broadcast to the van outside where the defense experts could see what was going on, which to me explains the show and tell format.

Was Massei part of the conspiracy?

The knife and the bra clasp. That's two. I bet I've been Ninja'd (haven't read all the new posts yet).

 

[anglolawyer]

I am not sure they could have put Raf's DNA on the bra clasp without the DNA of others there as well. That would necessitate obtaining a sample from Raf that only had his DNA on it, wearing clean latex gloves, possibly using sterile tweezers, and packaging the item in an appropriate evidence container such as a sterile calendar box. . Then using a clean lab instrument devoid of contamination to test it. Doing it really right would have been outside their area of expertise.

If I remember correctly, the video of Stefanoni finding and flaunting the bra clasp as if it were a patron saint medal does not actually show her locating it on camera herself. It was reportedly located under a rug, off camera. What you do not see is that. For all we know, another police officer hunched over and with his back to Stefanoni picked up the bra clasp off-camera, wiped it with a sock taken from Raf, turned around and handed it off camera to Stefanoni who then holds it up to the camera. The defense rep sitting in a police van outside did not see any of it.

There is no need for this. Since the clasp was effectively destroyed by being stored in a manner which our own professor of biochemistry finds inexplicable there is no reason to suppose there was any biological material of Raf's on it. The 18th December panto (well-timed for Christmas ) has many interesting twists but this is not one. Maybe the clasp was 'found' off camera because someone had to fish it out of his pocket first.

 

[anglolawyer]

It's just business as usual. The cops solve cases by getting people to confess or accuse others. The prosecutors win cases by gaming the system, getting buddy buddy with the judges, tapping everybody's phones, threatening journalists and experts that don't agree with the case with charges, & both control the flow of information to the public, making them look good and the accused look bad. The scientific police, people like Steffi know their job is to find evidence of guilt and suppress evidence of innocence.

That's the system, and overcoming it is a battle.

+1

 

[Bill Williams]

There is no need for this. Since the clasp was effectively destroyed by being stored in a manner which our own professor of biochemistry finds inexplicable there is no reason to suppose there was any biological material of Raf's on it. The 18th December panto (well-timed for Christmas ) has many interesting twists but this is not one. Maybe the clasp was 'found' off camera because someone had to fish it out of his pocket first.

Would not locating the electronic data files answer this?

 

[anglolawyer]

Would not locating the electronic data files answer this?

TBH I don't know. I don't know enough about the regular process of DNA profiling to know how to spot its subversion. Stefanoni could be sitting on the EDFs on principle rather than because they give the game away. Diocletus, Chris and Kaosium are the goto guys on this.

 

[Bill Williams]

TBH I don't know. I don't know enough about the regular process of DNA profiling to know how to spot its subversion. Stefanoni could be sitting on the EDFs on principle rather than because they give the game away. Diocletus, Chris and Kaosium are the goto guys on this.

Yup, over to them. At first blush the EDFs will either expose Stefanoni as either an incompetent or as a criminal. There does not seem to be another explanation what with the exonerations.

 

[Dan O.]

Did they really fry them one at a time or did they hook them up to the same interface in parallel? Frying them one at time is pretty darn incompetent.

The WriteProtect(tm) adaptor that the postal police were using is intended to protect the evidence drive from inadvertently being overwritten. It has a single data cable that attaches to the bare disk drive after it had been removed from the computer. There is no way to have plugged in multiple drives in parallel.

 

[Samson]

It's just business as usual. The cops solve cases by getting people to confess or accuse others. The prosecutors win cases by gaming the system, getting buddy buddy with the judges, tapping everybody's phones, threatening journalists and experts that don't agree with the case with charges, & both control the flow of information to the public, making them look good and the accused look bad. The scientific police, people like Steffi know their job is to find evidence of guilt and suppress evidence of innocence.

That's the system, and overcoming it is a battle.

Yes, with the proviso that usually the end justifies the means. When the end is someone's innocent life, all society should be called to account for their abominable abstention from responsibility.

 

[Annella]

It's just business as usual. The cops solve cases by getting people to confess or accuse others. The prosecutors win cases by gaming the system, getting buddy buddy with the judges, tapping everybody's phones, threatening journalists and experts that don't agree with the case with charges, & both control the flow of information to the public, making them look good and the accused look bad. The scientific police, people like Steffi know their job is to find evidence of guilt and suppress evidence of innocence.

That's the system, and overcoming it is a battle.

This retired Italian Judge ( and he was with Cassation for a time) agree's with you Rose.

The Italian judiciary (which includes the public prosecutors) is a branch of the civil service. This particular branch chooses its members, is self-ruling, and is accountable to no one: a state within the state!… Political and dishonest judges have an infallible method of silencing or discrediting opponents, political or otherwise. A bogus indictment, the tapping of telephones, the conversations (often doctored) fed to the press to start a smear campaign, a spectacular arrest, prolonged preventive detention under the worst possible conditions, third-degree interrogations, and finally a trial that lasts many years and ends in the acquittal of a ruined man.

–Count Neri Capponi

 

[Matthew Best]

The random factoid generator just keeps spinning them out.

I'd ask for cites, but there are now 34 people ahead of me making that request of this poster.

It's worth bearing in mind that, while it can be quite difficult to win an argument with a smart person, it can be much harder to win an argument with a stupid person.

And winning an argument with a dishonest person can prove to be impossible.

 

[Planigale]

I would think it would be more accurate for her to say she didn't remember being told just as the british girls didn't remember there was no school on Friday because of the holiday.

I think the idea of premeditation is undone by the lack of planning. Why would one plan to bring a knife when plenty of knives were available at the cottage? Since it has been stated that they left before 9 why wouldn't they have put on a movie they had both seen before that lasted two hours. Why didn't they go to Gubbio and wait to be alerted by text?

In terms of what they couldn't know would have been if Mez had invited someone over.

Yes premedication is difficult because;
1) Knox expected to work that evening,
2) Sollecito was expecting to have to go and pick up a bag from the bus station,
So they were both 'busy' until around 20.40.
3) They had no way to contact or contact with Guede
4) Kercher's movements were unknown; they would not know when she would return home, if she would be alone,
5) Knox did not know the movements of her other flat mates and the boys in the flat below

The timescale allows minutes to develop the idea, recruit Guede (with no means of contacting him), all the time not knowing where Knox might be, or with whom. Then Curatalo has to be fitted in.

 

[Planigale]

And the forensic police frying the computer drives one at a time? And the shoe print and foot print experts?

And the cell phone experts?

And the bogus witnesses?

Aren't they all just doing their bit in their one area of activity?

But its all done to please Mignini. Everybody doesn't need to know what everyone else is doing, only Mignini needs to know that.

So is that still a conspiracy? Or just a runaway prosecutor abusing his office.

Either Mignini is coordinating or inducing all these actions, or he is a dupe of massively parallel incompetence that all just happens to support a conviction.

I previously referenced another murder case where a completely separate set of police did the same thing. This makes me think there is a problem with their standard methodology or equipment.