Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Strozzi]

Ia this before or after they broke it down to get in?

My theory is that Rudy having broken in and gaining entry through Filomena's bedroom window, made himself at home. Went to the toilet and while sitting there Meredith came home, locked the door behind her and proceeded to her bedroom. Rudy waited a few moments and then tried to sneak out but found the door locked and then was discovered when he tried to get out through Filomena's bedroom. And then he attacked Mrredith. But it could have happened in a very different way.But what is clear that Rudy killed Meredith and that Amanda and Raffaele were not there.

Two aspects that I want to add to your summary of what occurred above are as follows.

The lights were off when Rudi entered through Filomena's window sometime between 8:30 and 9 pm. Her room was dark. I believe he passed through the dark bedroom very quickly to go into the living area to scout the flat, without turning on a light in her room. He probably intended to return soon to the room to search it. He did not then rummage through Filomena's bedstand drawer or elsewhere in her room as he past through. He did not in the dark see or collect valuable items then, such as Filomena's laptop. Because Meredith came home, Rudi never got to collect valuables in the dark bedroom.

Secondly, I believe he was in the bathroom taking his time, listening to music (his account), when he heard the front door open and someone enter. Frightened, not knowing at first how many people had just come home, Rudi would have instantly pulled out his knife and had it ready to jab if anyone walked in on him in the bathroom. He quietly rose from the toilet and secured his pants. Not hearing conversation, he would have assumed that whoever had just entered was one person alone. He had his knife in hand when he a few minutes later snuck out of the bathroom to go for the front door.

It appears Rudi had a pattern when he burglarized a vacant place of taking his time, making himself at home, raiding the kitchen for food. He seems not to have been in any hurry to leave. (It was reported that the burglar who broke into the lawyers' office by throwing a rock through the second-story window and then climbing in arranged together several pieces of broken window glass on a table, as if assembling a puzzle. Strange behavior for a burglar in the middle if a burglary. He also ate food from the lawyers' refrigerator.)

 

[Antony]

If you are going to discredit Curatolo on the grounds of his lifestyle, then how very much worse is a child kidnapper and child killer?

Curatolo's lifestyle is only one factor in his lack of credibility.

I am all for parties bringing whatever witness they wish, as I have said several times.

The character or credibility of a witness soon becomes clear for all to see, so why worry?

Exactly. And Curatolo has no credibility - as determined by Hellmann, who gave him every opportunity but still he made no sense. Chieffi's court acted illegally in overruling Hellmann on this point.

In the event, Alessi was deemed unreliable.

... by a judge (Nencini) who disregarded expert opinion on the unreliability of Stefanoni's knife DNA claims, after sample 36i failed to provide the results needed by the prosecution. This is another of your appeals to authority that no longer stands as authority.

 

[RoseMontague]

RWVBWL,

The hair and the TMB-positive material from the window are Reps 198 and 199 if I understand correctly. Based on a long-ago discussion here at ISF (which included images of the SALs), I believe that they tried a confirmatory blood test on Rep. 199 and that it was negative. However, again going on memory, the confirmatory test was performed months later. The test for DNA was also negative, but I don't recall when it was done. RoseMontague may remember it better than I do. If there were a delay, then that is sloppy work.

The TMB test was positive on the spot of blood. They were unable to get a DNA profile from the hair or the blood.

 

[Strozzi]

Just a musing:

If the window was such an impossible break-in point for a real burglary as per the prosecution, wouldn't that make it an equally bad staged break-in point? I suppose, from a guilt perspective (I believe AK and RS are innocent) one would simply argue AK and RS didn't think of everything. A rookie mistake if you will. But then Judge Massimo Riccarelli characterized her as crafty and cunning. How crafty or cunning is it to stage a break-in at an "impossible" point of entry.

As you point out above, a person with a guilt perspective, believing (falsely) the window was an impossible break-in point for a real burglary, would argue that AK and RS didn't think of everything. (Rookie mistake). In that case, the guilter would have to believe that Amanda forgot her house is built into the side of a hill.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Well, Amanda's footprint was found on a postcard beneath Filomena's window.

The problem is you've been fed outright lies like the above. I don't know where this one originates from, probably the ballerina stalker guy's site that you admitted to reading.

Too much reading of biased weirdo webpages, too little of actual court documents. That's why your picture of the case is so grotesquely distorted.

 

[Kauffer]

Well, Amanda's footprint was found on a postcard beneath Filomena's window.
Where is your citation for the blood and hair on Filomena's window sill?

No secret. It is catalogued:

[excerpt]Of the over 480 tests prepared on samples, 93 of these constituted hairs or fibres. 86 were human hairs of varying length, in varying colors. The most significant colors noted were black, blonde, chestnut, light chestnut and red chestnut.

Only 3 hairs yielded DNA; all 3 hairs yielded DNA compatible with Ms. Kercher’s DNA. All 3 hairs were chestnut colored and over 15 cm long.

35 hairs were chestnut in color; the vast majority of these were found in Ms. Kercher’s room. 2 were also found on a kitchen sponge at Sollecito’s apartment. Two hairs, corresponding in colour to Meredith’s hair, found not on a book, or a mat, but a kitchen sponge in Raffaele Sollecito’s apartment.

7 hairs were black in color. 6 of these were 4 cm long or less, and so likely Guede’s hair. 4 of these were on the duvet and 1 was on the mattress cover, both in Ms. Kercher’s room. 1 was also on a sponge at Sollecito’s apartment.

21 blonde hairs were analyzed, and were likely Knox’s hairs. Most were found at Sollecito’s apartment, 10 on a sponge in the kitchen and 5 on a sweater. Three different people, three different hair types, all three on the sponge… 6. Of the 6 blonde hairs found at the cottage, 2 were on the duvet, 1 was inside the small bathroom sink, 1 was on Ms. Kercher’s purse and 1 was on her mattress cover.

[excerpt ends]

Of course only Mez' hair was identified as hers from DNA analysis. But how did they turn up on a sponge in Raf's aptmt?

EMWTO

Please provide the sources for these claims? Amanda's footprint in Romanelli's room?? Source?

Where is this "excerpt" from?

 

[bagels]

Please provide the sources for these claims? Amanda's footprint in Romanelli's room?? Source?

Where is this "excerpt" from?

The excerpt is from the guilter wiki, and very craftily attempts to imply, but does not actually say, the sponge hairs had something to do with the hairs that returned positive for Meredith's DNA.

I think most of these trash sources posted are unlikely to be posted by anyone arguing in good faith, even a guilter, but might be favored by certain under the bridge dwellers, although it's not my place to speculate

 

[Kauffer]

That was some four years later. <Shrug.> I trust the court to come to its own conclusions about his credibility. It looks at all the eye witness accounts as a whole, and tests whether they corroborate each other.

It did. The last trial court to hear him concluded he lacked credibility. The SC, however, following that conclusion, and having not heard the witness, AND, in contravention of the law, interfered with the trial court's conclusion.

 

[Kauffer]

The excerpt is from the guilter wiki, and very craftily attempts to imply, but does not actually say, the sponge hairs had something to do with the hairs that returned positive for Meredith's DNA.

I think most of these trash sources posted are unlikely to be posted by anyone arguing in good faith, even a guilter, but might be favored by certain under the bridge dwellers, although it's not my place to speculate

Yes, but this is the point, isn't it? You cannot create your own sources to substantiate a claim, nor, anyway are secondary sources definitive. In this case, we have impeccable primary sources of information. So, whilst we can use secondary sources to guide us, we verify information from the primary.

Vixen knows what she is doing, because she only names her sources when she thinks they are helpful. Of course, they are not helpful to her at all, but she has clearly learned that references to TJMK and other agenda based sites, do not convince anyone, so she cites from them but does not name them.

 

[anglolawyer]

The problem is you've been fed outright lies like the above. I don't know where this one originates from, probably the ballerina stalker guy's site that you admitted to reading.

Too much reading of biased weirdo webpages, too little of actual court documents. That's why your picture of the case is so grotesquely distorted.

I guess the footprint-on-postcard point is part of the mass of 'all the other evidence' that convinces the feeble-minded. It's remarkable how much of it Mignini neglected to use (not this footprint, not the moving the body theory, not the lamp). TJMK and the guilter-wiki are full of crap and Vixen is doing the right thing by seeking enlightenment here.

 

[Strozzi]

Now you are just messing with us, or are totally ignorant of the case facts.

Both.

 

[Bill Williams]

In the event, Alessi was deemed unreliable.

... by a judge (Nencini) who disregarded expert opinion on the unreliability of Stefanoni's knife DNA claims, after sample 36i failed to provide the results needed by the prosecution. This is another of your appeals to authority that no longer stands as authority.

There's nothing wrong, per se, with an appeal to authority. It's what authorities are for!

It's when the body representing the authority has long since lost any confidence that it is, in fact, a worthy authority that problems arise.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well, Amanda's footprint was found on a postcard beneath Filomena's window.

Where is your citation for the blood and hair on Filomena's window sill?

What is YOUR citation for the postcard? So far the only citations for your avalanche of factoids have been the long-since discredited (and in one case closed) hate sites, as well as some early newspaper reports - which you probably got from the long-since discredited (and in one case closed) hate sites.

No fair asking for cites if you're not willing to provide them.

 

[Antony]

There's nothing wrong, per se, with an appeal to authority. It's what authorities are for!

I take your point, but that's only the case when the authority genuinely has skills or information not available to the lay person. It's not the case here, when the facts and the evidence are available for anyone to see, and the "authority" only has an opinion to offer (albeit one with legal force).

It's when the body representing the authority has long since lost any confidence that it is, in fact, a worthy authority that problems arise.

In this particular case, Vixen is (again) appealing to the "authority" of the Nencini court, which no longer even has any legal force.

 

[anglolawyer]

And of cause the authority of TJMK

 

[Dan O.]

Your ravings plumb new depths. Blood is blood, not tables and chairs. It's not an obstacle to ransacking. Even if she were hung out the window she would not be visible from the car park area. There was no staging. Your last sentence defies comprehension.

Move on.

From the far end of the car park, if the patio doors are left open and Meredith's bedroom door is open, with a telephoto lens you can see a narrow path across the bed to the wall on the other side. And right in the middle of this view in a room staged to hide the external appearance of a murder are the three long bloody finger streaks on the wall.


Moving on is a problem.

On this forum, Vixen is allowed to lie his head off and we can do nothing but respond to the individual lies as they occure. The forum doesn't have a definition of trolling so making outrageous statements even when known to grate against the sensibilities of other posters is permitted. But the forum does have a rule against spamming. This rapid fire dump of every known guilter talking point without pausing to discuss or acknowledg the counter arguments surely meets the definition of spamming. Moving on will just change the topic yet again and continue the violation. He needs to settle down, pick a topic and give it time for all aspects of that topic to be fully explored before moving on to the next. Is there any possibility that Vixen will settle down to actually discuss this case on his own or do we need to call in the Mods to force some order?

 

[Bill Williams]

And of cause the authority of TJMK

Well, you have to admit that TJMK has 100s of lawyers. Ninety-nine if you delete Machiavelli who is nowhere to be seen. Ninety-seven if you discount those now trapped behind Peggy's Iron Curtain.

Me, I'm a fan of authority. I'd have never even remotely understood the issues around DNA in this case if Chris_Halikides had not gently taken me by the hand, and patiently re-explained what to him is obvious, and what is to us pugknockers is the mysteries of Delphi.

 

[Bill Williams]

On this forum, Vixen is allowed to lie his head off and we can do nothing but respond to the individual lies as they occure. The forum doesn't have a definition of trolling so making outrageous statements even when known to grate against the sensibilities of other posters is permitted. But the forum does have a rule against spamming. This rapid fire dump of every known guilter talking point without pausing to discuss or acknowledg the counter arguments surely meets the definition of spamming. Moving on will just change the topic yet again and continue the violation. He needs to settle down, pick a topic and give it time for all aspects of that topic to be fully explored before moving on to the next. Is there any possibility that Vixen will settle down to actually discuss this case on his own or do we need to call in the Mods to force some order?

Where does "flooding" fit into this? There have been posters suspended for making numerous posts which don't really participate in conversation, just flood the forum with an agenda.

Then again, if not for Vixen, what would we be talking about?

 

[acbytesla]

Two aspects that I want to add to your summary of what occurred above are as follows.

The lights were off when Rudi entered through Filomena's window sometime between 8:30 and 9 pm. Her room was dark. I believe he passed through the dark bedroom very quickly to go into the living area to scout the flat, without turning on a light in her room. He probably intended to return soon to the room to search it. He did not then rummage through Filomena's bedstand drawer or elsewhere in her room as he past through. He did not in the dark see or collect valuable items then, such as Filomena's laptop. Because Meredith came home, Rudi never got to collect valuables in the dark bedroom.

Secondly, I believe he was in the bathroom taking his time, listening to music (his account), when he heard the front door open and someone enter. Frightened, not knowing at first how many people had just come home, Rudi would have instantly pulled out his knife and had it ready to jab if anyone walked in on him in the bathroom. He quietly rose from the toilet and secured his pants. Not hearing conversation, he would have assumed that whoever had just entered was one person alone. He had his knife in hand when he a few minutes later snuck out of the bathroom to go for the front door.

It appears Rudi had a pattern when he burglarized a vacant place of taking his time, making himself at home, raiding the kitchen for food. He seems not to have been in any hurry to leave. (It was reported that the burglar who broke into the lawyers' office by throwing a rock through the second-story window and then climbing in arranged together several pieces of broken window glass on a table, as if assembling a puzzle. Strange behavior for a burglar in the middle if a burglary. He also ate food from the lawyers' refrigerator.)

Could be Strozzi. My point really is that while I have a theory as to how the murder took place, I have scant reason to feel any confidence that the murder happened like this. I think the evidence tells us who...but only a little about how. It is there where we start playing fill in the blanks.

 

[Grinder]

I think you missed the point of this exchange. It seems that Raff (and Amanda) were verifiably not in the piazza on the evening of 31 October. Vixen (and the Chieffi court in annulling Hellmann) take this as proof that Curatolo actually saw the 2 of them on the evening of 1 November eek, and that it was legitimate grounds for declaring the Hellmann verdict "manifestly illogical".

Of course, it was a clear instance of the Chieffi court illegally intruding into interpretation of evidence (and showing blatant lack of impartiality). Is it too much to imagine that the coming motivations will refer to this?

What's really stunning is that Hellmann had Curatolo as witness but Nencini didn't and we know how important actually seeing the court proceedings is to a certain skeptic.