Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Antony]

How would Curatolo have known about the scientific police going in next day?

He accurately described them.

The only way this would be meaningful is if he described them accurately before seeing them in the news. But he didn't come forward with his "sighting" until months later.

In any case, he "saw" them on October 31. We know this from the disco buses.

 

[Dan O.]

It is good research material. Lots of lawyers, historians and journalists scour newspaper archives.

Have you seen a lawyer, historian or journalist base their entire case on a single article from a newspaper (as you have been doing here)?

What you are doing is called cherry-picking. It is what trolls that aren't smart enough to carry the debate do.

 

[Anode]

I am familiar with the EC Human Rights Act.

Censorship of the forensic evidence: Let's start with ROLLING STONE. This early article gained great popular support for Amanda, when it is complete PR fiction.


http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-neverending-nightmare-of-amanda-knox-20110627

This is the same publication who regard the Boston Bomber a cover page pin up.

In retrospect that turned out to be one of the most accurate and well written articles on this case. Ever. Thanks for pinning it back up here.

 

[acbytesla]

Moreover, once it is concluded that the reality surrounding [events] was 31 October and not 1 November, it would seem more logical to reconsider the sighting of the two youths in that context, therefore on 31 October, because it is contemporaneous with the sighting, rather than the next day which is the day preceding the arrival of the Scientific Police, but thus necessarily extrapolated from context. Hellmann on Curatolo.

Discuss.

No. Not when the guy comes forward 6 months later. Frankly I would be highly skeptical of any eyewitnesses, since they are notoriously unreliable even under the best of circumstsnces. But for one to come forward 6 months later to describe a non event and with such detail is absurd.

It would be one thing for an eyewitness to identify someone they had met or known previous to the incident. But, there is no real reason for homeless junkiebto have remembered either Amanda or Rsffaele. Or the event of a couple in the park. Keep in mind that Amanda lived in Perugia for 40 days.
It's not like Amanda gave him change ever day. So why would he recognize her.

And we haven't discussed Toto's substance abuse problems.

 

[Dougm]

What seems to happen in this case is that new people come along, who go back and read the media reports from 2007. They haven't participated in any of the discussion, new media reports, new expert reports, etc. that have happened over the past 7.5 years. They read TJMK and/or PMF, and those people pretty much say that the 2007 media reports were right, and it was an evil PR campaign that was able to lie and convince people that those reports were wrong.

Then those people come here and start arguing that position to people who have picked apart the case in detail for years, and we all go, "huh??".

Those arguments only make sense in a fantasy world where we can go back to 2007, freeze time, and assume there was no additional fact checking done after the initial newspaper reports.

Un ..... believable!

 

[Dan O.]

How would Curatolo have known about the scientific police going in next day?

He accurately described them.

No, he was off a day on that one too. Your sources are so full of crap you need to take a shower after visiting there.

 

[RoseMontague]

The most troubling thing would be if you actually believed this, and weren't just pushing this as some misguided loyalty to the former guilt campaign. You seem determined to push on with that campaign long after it has collapsed.

Vixen - how on earth do you link this journalistic American conspiracy with the Italian courts - courts in Italy!!! - which have fully exonerated them?

Wow - that Seattle PR firm must be powerful!!!

PR agents are enormously powerful.

Pretty funny stuff. Nobody takes you seriously with arguments like this.

 

[Dougm]

No. Not when the guy comes forward 6 months later. Frankly I would be highly skeptical of any eyewitnesses, since they are notoriously unreliable even under the best of circumstsnces. But for one to come forward 6 months later to describe a non event and with such detail is absurd.

It would be one thing for an eyewitness to identify someone they had met or known previous to the incident. But, there is no real reason for homeless junkiebto have remembered either Amanda or Rsffaele. Or the event of a couple in the park. Keep in mind that Amanda lived in Perugia for 40 days.
It's not like Amanda gave him change ever day. So why would he recognize her.

And we haven't discussed Toto's substance abuse problems.

There was once this really great article written about the fallacy of eyewitness testimony, somewhere on the internet. I'll try to find it for you ...

Oh, here it is!! http://groundreport.com/what-you-see-isnt-always-what-you-get-the-fallacy-of-eyewitness-testimony/

This one was really memorable to me, for some reason

 

[Chris_Halkides]

heroin and its effects

And we haven't discussed Toto's substance abuse problems.

A friend of mine is a retired physician. He wrote to me about the effects of heroin:

"Chronic use of the drug over the course of months or years leads to memory loss, cognitive losses of brain function, antisocial behavior over and above drug seeking, and the long list of side effects that I will list on a separate page. The occurrence of psychotic symptoms such as delusions and hallucinations are common. But there is disagreement among the specialists in the field whether these are always caused by the heroin addiction. When psychotic manifestations occur the question is whether they are caused by the addiction or whether the patient has a major psychosis separately from the drug effects. Obviously if manifestations of psychosis start before the drug addiction, it would be sensible to ascribe them to a separate disease, but if the manifestations appear after addiction has started there is no way of knowing. For the moment, the official interpretation is that when the manifestations occur after the addiction has been in place for some time the two diseases coexist. When the psychotic manifestations appear in old people, they are very unlikely to be due to separate disease, because schizophrenia starts in young, not old subjects. Depression, and Bipolar Disease I. and II. which are extremely common in heroin addiction are thought to be due to the drug and often are associated with delusions, less frequently with hallucinations. There is one report of the prevalence of psychotic symptoms in opiate addiction of 63%. Confusion as to time and place is also extremely common in long standing drug abuse, and is generally ascribed to the drug’s injury to the frontal cortex." (highlighting mine)

 

[Numbers]

I am familiar with the EC Human Rights Act.

....

Vixen,

Are you referring here to the UK Human Rights Act:

The Human Rights Act 1998 (also known as the Act or the HRA) came into force in the United Kingdom in October 2000. It is composed of a series of sections that have the effect of codifying the protections in the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law.

All public bodies (such as courts, police, local governments, hospitals, publicly funded schools, and others) and other bodies carrying out public functions have to comply with the Convention rights.

This means, among other things, that individuals can take human rights cases in domestic courts; they no longer have to go to Strasbourg to argue their case in the European Court of Human Rights.

Source: http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/your-rights/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act

That is all very well, the reference however is the treaty of the Council of Europe (CoE) and the treaty of that confederation commonly called the European Convention on Human Rights. Italy, the UK, and 45 other European countries are signatories to the CoE and the Convention. The Convention is the supreme minimal human rights law for the CoE States. (If any State has a stronger human rights law, it remains in effect.)

See: http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=home&c=

 

[Strozzi]

Do your own research. We are not debating with TJMK.

Unfortunately, it appears we are. It appears TJMK has come to us. They are like Curatolo - homeless serial witnesses.

Hey, Vixen, I have a test question for you from the Mensa candidate test:
Q: What do you call a trial in Perugia that is public and attended by hundreds of journalists?
A: A circus!

 

[acbytesla]

A friend of mine is a retired physician. He wrote to me about the effects of heroin:

"Chronic use of the drug over the course of months or years leads to memory loss, cognitive losses of brain function, antisocial behavior over and above drug seeking, and the long list of side effects that I will list on a separate page. The occurrence of psychotic symptoms such as delusions and hallucinations are common. But there is disagreement among the specialists in the field whether these are always caused by the heroin addiction. When psychotic manifestations occur the question is whether they are caused by the addiction or whether the patient has a major psychosis separately from the drug effects. Obviously if manifestations of psychosis start before the drug addiction, it would be sensible to ascribe them to a separate disease, but if the manifestations appear after addiction has started there is no way of knowing. For the moment, the official interpretation is that when the manifestations occur after the addiction has been in place for some time the two diseases coexist. When the psychotic manifestations appear in old people, they are very unlikely to be due to separate disease, because schizophrenia starts in young, not old subjects. Depression, and Bipolar Disease I. and II. which are extremely common in heroin addiction are thought to be due to the drug and often are associated with delusions, less frequently with hallucinations. There is one report of the prevalence of psychotic symptoms in opiate addiction of 63%. Confusion as to time and place is also extremely common in long standing drug abuse, and is generally ascribed to the drug’s injury to the frontal cortex." (highlighting mine)

And we didn't even mention that the use of opiates causes night blindness.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a list of side effects

And we didn't even mention that the use of opiates causes night blindness.

My friend also provided a handy list:
Side Effects of Chronic Heroin Addiction


Absent, missed, or irregular menstrual periods
agitation
bad, unusual, or unpleasant (after) taste
change in vision
depression
dry mouth
face is warm or hot to touch
floating feeling
halos around lights
heartburn or indigestion
loss in sexual ability, desire, drive, or performance
muscle stiffness or tightness
night blindnessoverbright appearance of lights
problems with muscle control
redness of the skin
skin rash
stomach discomfort, upset, or pain
trouble sleeping
uncontrolled eye movements
Abnormal dreams
change in walking and balance
change or problem with discharge of semen
clumsiness or unsteadiness
confusion as to time, place, or person
delusions
dementia
feeling of constant movement of self or surroundings
general feeling of discomfort or illness
holding false beliefs that cannot be changed by fact
problems with memory
seeing, hearing, or feeling things that are not there
sensation of spinning
unusual excitement, nervousness, or restlessness

 

[acbytesla]

There was once this really great article written about the fallacy of eyewitness testimony, somewhere on the internet. I'll try to find it for you ...

Oh, here it is!! http://groundreport.com/what-you-see-isnt-always-what-you-get-the-fallacy-of-eyewitness-testimony/

This one was really memorable to me, for some reason

It's a great article Doug. There have also been countless academic experiments over the years that all come to the conclusion that eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. What is really unfortunate is how powerful they are in trials.

I have always given Curatalo and Quintavalle the benefit of the doubt. Not that I find their statements reliable, just that over time their minds created the false memories. Probably through conflation, suggestion and a sort of internal need to be important.

 

[Kauffer]

My friend also provided a handy list:
Side Effects of Chronic Heroin Addiction


Absent, missed, or irregular menstrual periods
agitation
bad, unusual, or unpleasant (after) taste
change in vision
depression
dry mouth
face is warm or hot to touch
floating feeling
halos around lights
heartburn or indigestion
loss in sexual ability, desire, drive, or performance
muscle stiffness or tightness
night blindness
overbright appearance of lights
problems with muscle control
redness of the skin
skin rash
stomach discomfort, upset, or pain
trouble sleeping
uncontrolled eye movements
Abnormal dreams
change in walking and balance
change or problem with discharge of semen
clumsiness or unsteadiness
confusion as to time, place, or person
delusions
dementia
feeling of constant movement of self or surroundings
general feeling of discomfort or illness
holding false beliefs that cannot be changed by factproblems with memory
seeing, hearing, or feeling things that are not there
sensation of spinning
unusual excitement, nervousness, or restlessness

You don't think that the pro guilters......Nah!

 

[Grinder]

You don't think that the pro guilters......Nah!

But they aren't mellow and convincing like Curatolo.

Made me remember the PG guy that went to Perugia made a bunch of giggly video, put plastic flowers on the cottage gate and looked into Curatolo's eyes and knew he was a good man. Lucky for him the cops weren't watching or he might have been busted when he gave Curatolo 5 Euro.

 

[RWVBWL]

A Good Neighbor...

It's a great article Doug. There have also been countless academic experiments over the years that all come to the conclusion that eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. What is really unfortunate is how powerful they are in trials.

I have always given Curatalo and Quintavalle the benefit of the doubt. Not that I find their statements reliable, just that over time their minds created the false memories. Probably through conflation, suggestion and a sort of internal need to be important.

Come on ACbyTesla,
It's time to get real, the Marco + the tramp's statements were bogus!!!

Neither reported what they saw when 1st questioned by police,
and Curatolo was questioned the very day Miss Kercher was found raped + murdered.

It was almost 1/2 a year later for Antonio and only about 1 year later for Marco to come forward at the behest of a journalist (to help Mignini's theory), who just so happened to have been a long time friend of Marco's and lived next door to his shop:

Perugia Shock
Jan. 15, 2009:
<snip>
Just by coincidence the journalist who found him is a friend of him for decades and lives next door to his store. In other words the same journalist who for one year has been bothering all pushers and homeless people of the park, the one that has been buzzing at all doors around via della Pergola needed one year to know something from his old friend Marco whose store is just next door...

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000011/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

* * *


Here's another link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

Go to The Documents Section on the left side +
read the English translation transcripts of The Massei Trial
with both Marco Quintavalle + Antonio "Toto" Curatolo testimony,
it was complete bullcrap, tragically too sad, for Amanda, Raff + Justice for Meredith...


Amanda + Raff are FREE now,
it's time, in my humble opinion,
to call bull^^^^ what it is when we see it right in front of us...

RW

 

[RWVBWL]

Left handed Knifer? Big Cheekbones? It wasn't Raff!

I just luv reading of the little tidbits of info that Perugia Shock reported back in the day,
which most newspapers and articles never really mentioned...

Hey Vixen,
ya still readin' my posts?

Here's a nice snippet of 1 for ya,
gosh I found it in the old PS link above in my last post to ACbyTesla!:

Nothing really new for the moment. Nothing has been proven and the objections are still on the table. With the occasion let's look at the quoted Rudy's testimony.

Guede: I touched this person on his shoulder and this person turned around on the left... and he had a knife in his hand.
PM: In his left hand?
Guede: Yes, in his left hand.
PM: And how was this knife?
Guede: To say the truth I didn't see how was it, but I had the signs of it on me. He had a black jacket, I've noticed the logo Napapjiri, which is unmistakable, and he was wearing a white cap with a red stripe. And turning around suddenly... I thought of running away, I mean of stepping back an defending myself in some way... I've been injured.
PM: What did struck you of this person?
Guede: His cheek-bones. They were evident. I don't mean huge but you could see they were big.

Does anyone recognize in this left-hand Neanderthal man the right-hand and chubby-faced Raffaele Solecito?

So, it seems that Rudy himself exonerates Raffaele. Rudy had plenty of time to come to know if Raffale was right or left-hand, and had seen enough pictures of him, none of which showed the particular cheek-bones he described.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

lying or believing their own false memories

RWVBWL,

IIUC Acbytesla was saying that they were not consciously lying. I think he agrees with most people here that their testimony was worthless. Or are you saying that they knowingly made false statements?

 

[acbytesla]

Come on ACbyTesla,
It's time to get real, the Marco + the tramp's statements were bogus!!!

Neither reported what they saw when 1st questioned by police,
and Curatolo was questioned the very day Miss Kercher was found raped + murdered.

It was almost 1/2 a year later for Antonio and only about 1 year later for Marco to come forward at the behest of a journalist (to help Mignini's theory), who just so happened to have been a long time friend of Marco's and lived next door to his shop:

Perugia Shock
Jan. 15, 2009:
<snip>
Just by coincidence the journalist who found him is a friend of him for decades and lives next door to his store. In other words the same journalist who for one year has been bothering all pushers and homeless people of the park, the one that has been buzzing at all doors around via della Pergola needed one year to know something from his old friend Marco whose store is just next door...

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000011/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

* * *


Here's another link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

Go to The Documents Section on the left side +
read the English translation transcripts of The Massei Trial
with both Marco Quintavalle + Antonio "Toto" Curatolo testimony,
it was complete bullcrap, tragically too sad, for Amanda, Raff + Justice for Meredith...


Amanda + Raff are FREE now,
it's time, in my humble opinion,
to call bull^^^^ what it is when we see it right in front of us...

RW

I never said they were reliable. Only that they "could" have been false memories. I am also unaware that Curatolo was questioned immediately following the murder. Quintavalle yes, but not Toto. Do you have a citation for that?