• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
judicious editing

when this case is about a very serious and heinous crime and nationality should be irrelevant in bringing the perpetrator/s to justice.
Vixen,

I snipped out most of your comment, leaving the only thing that made a lick of sense. Do you read Italian? You might prefer reading Professor Vinci's presentation on the shoe prints in the original language, which you can find at IIP. He discusses Rinaldi's inadequate "analysis" of the partial shoe print that Rinaldi tried to attribute to a woman's shoe.
 
Last edited:
I don't think so.

Always nice dealing with you. Why don't you just answer the question or ignore it in the first place.

What if it was both?


I did answer. Each piece of evidence is a part of the whole picture. If we misinterpret one piece it can change the shape of the whole in unpredictable ways. You seem to have the opinion that the evidence (a cut or torn clasp in this instance) must point directly to the guilt or innocence of a suspect or else it makes no difference. I take a different view. The evidence is what it is. The better we understand what each piece of evidence is, the better we will be able to interpret what the whole is.

Cutting of the clasp requires that the knife is deployed. That can limit the set of possible scenarios. The guilter view uses this by saying that Rudy was busy restraining Meredith so it must be Raffaele that deployed a knopife and cut the clasp off of the bra.

Tearing the clasp also limits the possibilities to a different set of scenarios because it requires the application of force. We can evaluate the direction of the force and the required counter force to cause the physical change. I did that for not just the clasp separating from the band but also the separation of the right strap from the band and the distortion of the upper hook, the unhooking of the lower hook without distortion and then the separation of the clasp from the band. This analysis indicates a force was applied in a specific direction to the back right band of the bra and the counter force being Meredith's body pulling away from this force. Noting that Rudy Guede's DNA was found on the back right band of the bra where this force would have been applied. The tearing of the clasp from the band is compatible with the scenario where Rudy is attempting to lift Meredith's body by grabbing the band.

There is your difference. A cut clasp pointing to the presence of Raffaele. A torn clasp pointing to Rudy removing the bra.

So, looking at the details of where the band separated from the clasp, I see the back band intact to the factory cut edge and the row of stiching holes still containing fragments of thread where it had previously attached to the clasp. On the clasp, there is no cut edge to mate with the band. This is a manufactured piece that holds the hooks. Quite clearly from looking at the photographic evidence, the clasp was torn from the bra.
 
Are we talking about the putative semen stain Dan or the palm print? I think it sounds if I just made a mistake thinking thar Vixen and you were talking about the semen stain.


I thought we were talking about the knife imprint at marker "J" on the bed sheet. Did somebody change the subject again?
 
I thought we were talking about the knife imprint at marker "J" on the bed sheet. Did somebody change the subject again?

This is my mistake. I failed to follow the thread close enough. Sorry.
 
Re the claim Luca mimed Mez having her throat cut. I would be interested to know how he mimed, "Mez [insert foulmouthed word] bled to death".

That was likely a inference from the throat cutting part.

How dare the "dingbats" take offence, eh. Amanda can't help being the Ugly American :/.

And they can't help being silly bints?

Lest you have the wrong idea, these girls weren't lifelong friends of Meredith, they didn't even know her before that semester. Between all of them they knew Meredith about half as well as Amanda did, being as Amanda lived with and socialized with Meredith, the English girls just interacted with Meredith a handful of times. With Amanda meeting Raffaele and staying at his place she was unavailable, thus Meredith had more time for the English girls.

Soon after the murder they fled back home and a tabloid reporter got to them and they gossiped about Amanda's condoms, toy vibrator and inability to navigate a European bathroom. That's how that nonsense was introduced to the case.
 
Last edited:
The knife print at marker "J" is a usefull marker to help sort out what happened in that closed room the night Meredith died. The print shows that the extent of the blood on the perpetrators right hand extended only to the first finger. The three stripes on the wall opposite the door shows a heavy coating of blood on three fingers. If we presume that both marks we're made shortly after Meredith was stabbed in the throat, that implies the three marks on the wall were made with a left hand. Now we have a perpetrator with two very bloody hands and we don't see these bloody hands touching the victim or anything else so we can exclude scenarios that don't have Rudy leaving the room to wash up at this point.

Closed room and Rudy alone with Meredith in the room are derived from the blood on the inside handle. The door had to be opened from the inside and there wasn't a non-bloody hand to open it with.

I'm thinking at this time that Rudy made two trips to wash up. The first was simply to wash his hands before returning with the towels and moving Meredith to the center of the room. The second trip to wash his hands, the blood on his pants and blood on the bottom of his shoe.

Of course, this is just the theory that I think best fits the evidence. All theories that are not excluded baby the evidence are still on the table. If anyone thinks they have a better scenario I would like to hear it.
 
That was likely a inference from the throat cutting part.


My recollection is that Luca testified that he saw Battistelli exit the cottage and motion with a cutting action across his throat indicating How Meredith died.

Luca's testimony should be available.
 
The knife print at marker "J" is a usefull marker to help sort out what happened in that closed room the night Meredith died. The print shows that the extent of the blood on the perpetrators right hand extended only to the first finger. The three stripes on the wall opposite the door shows a heavy coating of blood on three fingers. If we presume that both marks we're made shortly after Meredith was stabbed in the throat, that implies the three marks on the wall were made with a left hand. Now we have a perpetrator with two very bloody hands and we don't see these bloody hands touching the victim or anything else so we can exclude scenarios that don't have Rudy leaving the room to wash up at this point.

Closed room and Rudy alone with Meredith in the room are derived from the blood on the inside handle. The door had to be opened from the inside and there wasn't a non-bloody hand to open it with.

I'm thinking at this time that Rudy made two trips to wash up. The first was simply to wash his hands before returning with the towels and moving Meredith to the center of the room. The second trip to wash his hands, the blood on his pants and blood on the bottom of his shoe.
Of course, this is just the theory that I think best fits the evidence. All theories that are not excluded baby the evidence are still on the table. If anyone thinks they have a better scenario I would like to hear it.

Would you like to comment on how the shoe print/footprint evidence in and outside the room supports this "double trip" theory? Of course one of the pro guilt arguments is that there is insufficient evidence derivable from the prints even to get him into the bathroom once and the absence of evidence of him in the bathroom (sans the mat print) is also cited. Notwithstanding Guede's own statements, of course. I suppose a sceptic might say that there is a lack of physical evidence and that it is puzzling.
 
Last edited:
I did answer. Each piece of evidence is a part of the whole picture.

Thanks for the response. I believe that if Rudi moved Meredith with the bra and it separated the one part it doesn't mean the clasp had to be torn. I'm not arguing it was cut, but if it was it could still have been Rudi and doesn't indicate Raf or anyone else needed to be there.

I think this is another aspect that is totally over analyzed.

I do agree that if it was torn it definitely points much more to Rudi.
 
Lest you have the wrong idea, these girls weren't lifelong friends of Meredith, they didn't even know her before that semester. Between all of them they knew Meredith about half as well as Amanda did, being as Amanda lived with and socialized with Meredith, the English girls just interacted with Meredith a handful of times. With Amanda meeting Raffaele and staying at his place she was unavailable, thus Meredith had more time for the English girls.

Soon after the murder they fled back home and a tabloid reporter got to them and they gossiped about Amanda's condoms, toy vibrator and inability to navigate a European bathroom. That's how that nonsense was introduced to the case.

It would be refreshing if one of them went public with an apology to Amanda now that she's been exonerated. I notice that she has yet to say a negative word about any of them, in spite of how much misery they inflicted on her.

I get that they believed at the time that she'd killed their new friend, but now that that's been shown definitively to be wrong, a sincere and open "I'm sorry" would go a long way toward cleaning up the mess they helped to make.
 
It would be refreshing if one of them went public with an apology to Amanda now that she's been exonerated. I notice that she has yet to say a negative word about any of them, in spite of how much misery they inflicted on her.

I get that they believed at the time that she'd killed their new friend, but now that that's been shown definitively to be wrong, a sincere and open "I'm sorry" would go a long way toward cleaning up the mess they helped to make.

I don't think that is going to happen unless the Kerchers have a change of heart. Here is Natalie Hayward's interview with the telegraph in Britain just before the Hellmann verdict. This girl really got herself convinced by the hokum.

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=5459452
 
I don't think that is going to happen unless the Kerchers have a change of heart. Here is Natalie Hayward's interview with the telegraph in Britain just before the Hellmann verdict. This girl really got herself convinced by the hokum.

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=5459452

Same old same old. I wonder why it never seems to occur to interviewers that there should be someone, somewhere who can remember Amanda having a bad word to say about Meredith . . . it's always the other way around.

I expect you're right about the Kerchers -- and yet, wouldn't it be less painful to think that the person who killed their child is in prison than to think that they got away with it? Wouldn't it be an act of kindness to help them see what's been the truth all along?

The British women could do that. I don't think they will, but they -- along with the Italian police who were involved in that interrogation -- certainly could get started on clearing the damage.
 
Would you like to comment on how the shoe print/footprint evidence in and outside the room supports this "double trip" theory? Of course one of the pro guilt arguments is that there is insufficient evidence derivable from the prints even to get him into the bathroom once and the absence of evidence of him in the bathroom (sans the mat print) is also cited. Notwithstanding Guede's own statements, of course. I suppose a sceptic might say that there is a lack of physical evidence and that it is puzzling.


It's mostly that I haven't been able to squeeze all of the evidence into a single trip theory. The blood at "J" and the stripes on the wall show Rudy with two very bloody hands immediately after the stabing. There must be a cleanup trip before the body can be moved, the shirts pushed up, the bra ripped off, ... . The pillow shows a set of shoe prints that are incompatible with the prints going down the hall. And the bloody palm print on the pillow is incompatible with the blood on either hand seen on the bed or the wall.


My theory as it currently stands:

Rudy stabs Meredith where blood sprays on his right hand holding the knife and his left hand restraining Meredith. Rudy steps away and stands near the head of the bed while Meredith crawls from facing the wardrobe towards the radiator where she collapses. Rudy stands watching for perhaps 5 minutes placing his left hand on the wall at one point and then moves over and sits on the bed with the right hand still holding the knife leaving the mark at "J" as he sits. The mark on the wall behind the bed is probably created at this time as Rudy strikes the wall in anger with the bottom of his left fist creating an impact splatter. As Rudy is rotated, he drops the knife from his right hand, the point landing first and bouncing back creating the stain showing the double mark of the tip and the block of the hilt where it lands. Rudy stands up and opens the door with his right hand. The right index finger touches the poster on the door behind the handle. The hand slides off the handle and catches the door swinging open just below the latch.

Rudy washes his hands and returns to the bedroom with a towel. He straightens Meredith, probably removing her trowsers at this time. He pulls her head around pulling the jacket off and reversing the sleeves, He tries to lift her onto the pillow by grabing the bra band with one hand and under Meredith's right leg with the other. The bra rips apart with Meredith falling back to the floor leaving only the bra in Rudy's hand. In this process, Rudy steps in Meredith's blood with his left shoe which he tracks all over the pillow, has gotten more blood on one hand which left the identifying palm print and has gotten blood on the right pant leg.

Rudy slips off the left shoe and returns to the bathroom for the second cleaning. On the way he brushed the edge of the bathroom door with his pant leg leaving a drip of blood. Rudy slips off his right shoe and steps into the shower for the final cleaning. After rinsing the pant leg, Rudy steps out of the shower leaving the partial watery print on the mat. Rudy uses a towel to absorb the excess water on his pants and dry his foot then puts his shoes back on using the bidet as a foot stool where a few drips of watery blood fall.

Rudy returns to the murder room, grabs his knife, steps in more blood while backing towards the door then turns and walks briskly down the hall towards the front door leaving a trail of bloody shoe prints. He stops breifly at the kitchen table to grab his sweatshirt from the back of the chair which he tied around his waist then one more step towards the front door. But before putting full weight on that left foot he backs up, turns around and steps over to the couch. There he paces in place for 3 or 4 steps.

We cannot see the trail but it is presumed that Rudy then returned once more to Meredith's room to find her keys, took the cell phones and credit cards from her purse, scraping himself on the zipper leaving his DNA and locked Meridith's room on the way out. He then used the keys to unlock the front door and left.
 
Last edited:
Same old same old. I wonder why it never seems to occur to interviewers that there should be someone, somewhere who can remember Amanda having a bad word to say about Meredith . . . it's always the other way around.

I expect you're right about the Kerchers -- and yet, wouldn't it be less painful to think that the person who killed their child is in prison than to think that they got away with it? Wouldn't it be an act of kindness to help them see what's been the truth all along?

The British women could do that. I don't think they will, but they -- along with the Italian police who were involved in that interrogation -- certainly could get started on clearing the damage.

I never take this stuff very seriously. It's amazing what people say behind other people's backs. Very often, they don't really mean what they say, It's more about blowing off steam or even just having something. People talk about their bosses, employees, roommates, boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands, wives lovers, etc. etc. etc.

You can't take it seriously. My sisters do it constantly. The vast majority they don't really mean.

Amanda was different. She was a Yank, enough different that a bunch of Brits would talk about their strange colonial cousin. She's also from Seattle, which has its own separate culture that is kind of unique. I'm sure that Meredith is likely to comment about her. That doesn't really mean that she didn't like Amanda. I think it is very telling that so many of Mez's texts to Amanda signed off with kisses.If she truly hated Amanda there is no way that she would have done that.
 
Good grief! I thought it was a cow! This changes everything!

One of the women police officers in the room early in the interrogation of Raffaele on the night of Nov 5 told Raffaele "You don't know what that cow has done!". That was as she was insuniating to Raffaele that Amanda was involved in the murder.

This was separate to any discussion of any underwear Amanda purchased on Nov 3 when she was not able to access her own clothes from her room and needed to buy replacement clothes.
 
I never take this stuff very seriously. It's amazing what people say behind other people's backs. Very often, they don't really mean what they say, It's more about blowing off steam or even just having something. People talk about their bosses, employees, roommates, boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands, wives lovers, etc. etc. etc.

You can't take it seriously. My sisters do it constantly. The vast majority they don't really mean.

Amanda was different. She was a Yank, enough different that a bunch of Brits would talk about their strange colonial cousin. She's also from Seattle, which has its own separate culture that is kind of unique. I'm sure that Meredith is likely to comment about her. That doesn't really mean that she didn't like Amanda. I think it is very telling that so many of Mez's texts to Amanda signed off with kisses.If she truly hated Amanda there is no way that she would have done that.

Is this the same Meredith who with Amanda's permission was 'borrowing' condoms from Amanda's toilet bag?

Vixen, why wouldn't Meredith's downstairs boyfriend (what's his name: Glaucoma?), who wouldn't recognize or acknowledge Meredith when he and his buddies passed her on the street, provide his own condoms? I guess that would require him to actually spend money on his English girlfriend.

Did Meredith have the phone number of an Italian drug dealer (Farmer Glaucoma?) in her cell phone? Makes me wonder what Meredith and her British girlfriends were doing in Perugia. Couldn't they find a job, not even honest part-time work as a waitress in a local pub?
 
Last edited:
1) Rudy was capable of tearing a likely elastane mix with his bare hands?

Page 191 Massei report (Genetic investigations). Stefanoni said, re the bra:

"it had clearly been torn off, the straps were literally torn and part of the back had also been cut; there was one clear cut and therefore it appeared to have been cut (p 70 of the transcripts)."

So stop and question this statement. Stefanoni is a molecular biologists. Why is she commenting on the whether the bra is cut or torn? What is her competency to do so? More importantly what is the evidence from the statement? Has she examined the bra under a microscope? Has she presented to the court photomoicrographs and explained the differences in appearances between a tear and a cut?

If you choose to examine the evidence for yourself look at the images of the bra fastener, it is evident that it has separated at the seam where it joins to the strap. The torn stitching is seen. It was not cut.

More broadly this represents a recurrent problem in this case (that may be more generally an issue in Italy for all I know). There is an assertion of a fact e.g. the cutting of the bra strap without presentation of supporting evidence and without appropriate expert opinion.

I do not care about Knox or Sollecito as such, I do think that the forensic science was done badly, incompletely and as such can not be relied on. It happens that the evidence against Guede is more substantial.
 
attachment.php
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom