Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

What are the "hallmarks of premeditation" as far as the murder is concerned?

As far as the burglary was concerned, sure that was premeditated. Nobody thinks Guede just happened to be passing.

Who says the shutters were locked? Why do you think Guede didn't have the ability to test the the condition of the shutters?

Don't bother asking, Kauffer. Vixen is a random factoid generator, and you, my friend, will have to get in line for answers to counter-questions posed to him.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen, it's been asserted that your claim about Amanda's sex contact list identifying Raffaele as an IV drug user is a guilter fabrication. I make no judgement on this, but I'd be interested to see a citation.

Sergei - Don't bother asking. Vixen is a random factoid generator, and you, my friend, will have to get in line for answers to counter-questions posed to him. Right now you're in line ahead of Kauffer and way, way behind Carbonjam72 and Grinder. Oh yes, AngloLawyer is in there somewhere ahead of you, too.

 

[RWVBWL]

The knife in the photo above from LondonJohn
is much smaller than the huge kitchen knife taken from Raff's flat,
as seen below, right?

That knife from Raffaele's flat has such a huge, long blade on it.
If shoved all the way to the hilt, it would have nearly decapitated Meredith,
from what I recall reading.

But as Codyjuneau quoted from Kaosium last night:
Both wounds were the same depth (The knife went in the same length --within a millimeter) and both left hilt bruises meaning it was the same knife that made both wounds, or two with identical parameters.
No way was that kitchen knife of Raff's stabbed ONLY half way the length of the blade,
again+again, to the same depth.

Look at the wounds, if you want to really understand the knife blade debate:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg

I'd really like to see a photograph of a knife
with the same length of blade as the depth of the wounds in Miss Mercher's neck, and its handle too.

Anyone care to do some research
+ post a photo with a person's hand in it to, to give a realistic comparison,
much like that particular pic of Raff's kitchen knife and Londonjohn's example show?
RW


ETA - Hey Nick vd L,
your bloodied knife photo on your book cover has a blade that is too long...
https://www.facebook.com/hirezlife/...758464806919/1115180171831409/?type=1&fref=nf

 

[Sergei Walankov]

I'm mindful of that Bill, but I do like to err on the side fairness.

 

[Dan O.]

The interior shutters were never going to be a problem.

The evidence^* shows that the inner shutter was mostly closed but not behind the latch. This would leave a gap that is plainly visible once the outer shutter has been opened.

(*) evidence from photos showing the latch configuration, lack of damage on the shutter where the latch would be and imbedded glass fragments in the outside surface of the inner shutter.

 

[Dan O.]

I'd really like to see a photograph of a knife
with the same length of blade as the depth of the wounds in Miss Mercher's neck, and its handle too.

Anyone care to do some research
+ post a photo with a person's hand in it to, to give a realistic comparison,
much like that particular pic of Raff's kitchen knife and Londonjohn's example show?

Do you recall what the depth of the wound was? In my photo above I scaled the screen image to actual size and then choose a knife that I could hold that way without grabbing the sharp edge. I don't think the knife can be much larger.

 

[Kauffer]

Don't bother asking, Kauffer. Vixen is a random factoid generator, and you, my friend, will have to get in line for answers to counter-questions posed to him.

Yeah, I know. It's funny, because I went, the day before the Hellmann acquittals, knowing nothing about the case, other than, for some reason or other, having mistakenly got it into my head, presumably from half listening to news reports, that Guede, Amanda and Raffaele were all firm friends, to beyond reasonable doubt within an hour and a half's research, with that research only taking so long because I held out for about 45 minutes and refused to accept that there really was no evidence of Amanda in Kercher's room.

I claim no extraordinary powers for myself. So, I simply cannot accept that an honest enquiry can be as reckless with the evidence as someone like Vixen, but not only Vixen. There is no rational basis on which to believe that Amanda and Raffaele could have committed this crime.

 

[Kauffer]

Do you recall what the depth of the wound was? In my photo above I scaled the screen image to actual size and then choose a knife that I could hold that way without grabbing the sharp edge. I don't think the knife can be much larger.

The big wound is 8cms deep and the blade too, if you accept that the eccymosis is caused by the hilt.

"But even the major wound (in the left laterocervical region of the neck) – the one that, according to the Corte di Assise of first level, should have been produced by the knife under discussion – would however not have been caused, according to the defense consultants, by that knife, since the path [of the wound] appears to be noticeably shorter (8 cm as opposed to the 17.5 cm length of the blade) and the presence of an ecchymotic area [bruise] beneath the wound, corresponding to the entry of the blade, would mean that the handle ended up hitting [sbattere] [the flesh] at that point, the blade having been inserted in its entire length."

Hellmann report

 

[HumanityBlues]

It has all the hallmarks of premeditation.

Strozzi, are you telling us Rudy just happened to be passing and decided, hey I'm gonna chuck a 9lb rock at that shuttered window. Hey, I'm so dumb, who cares if I miss and it bounces back on to me or that the shutters turn out to be locked.

Yes, everyone here thinks Rudy just happened to pass by the cottage. It just dawned on him while he casually cased the house to commit a burglary.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder would add: three compatibles equals a match. Also, Italian trials are a form of opera and an inflexible rule of the form is that nobody ever lies, except the accused who are by law both allowed and encouraged to do so.

Yes, yes it worked. I commented while sleeping

 

[RWVBWL]

Do you recall what the depth of the wound was? In my photo above I scaled the screen image to actual size and then choose a knife that I could hold that way without grabbing the sharp edge. I don't think the knife can be much larger.

Sorry Dan O.,
I was not logged in so I did not see your photo,
but saw LJ's and thought the knife pic was his.
Nice job, both of you!

The big wound is 8cms deep and the blade too, if you accept that the eccymosis is caused by the hilt.

Good info, Kauffer, thanks!
The wound was 8 cms deep?
Now I wonder what is the blade length of the huge kitchen taken from Raffaele's because it was shiny and looked clean?

Oh wait a sec!
It has a 17. 5 cm blade?!?
(That's 6.89 inches, for the USA folks like me!)
((Err, that's 1 heckofa huge knife blade, yikes!!!)


My opinion only,
BUT no one is gonna stab a struggling woman,
using less than 1/2 of a knife blade,
again + again...

And if shoved all the way to the hilt,
which would have left some bruising on the victim,
the knife from Raff's would have mostly decapitated Mez.
Look at the photograph:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg


Hey Vixen,
do ya have any thoughts on this
and also the newly discussed bloody knife imprint that LondonJohn found and Dan O. personally compared?

 

[Kauffer]

Sorry Dan O.,
I was not logged in so I did not see your photo,
but saw LJ's and thought the knife pic was his.
Nice job, both of you!





Good info, Kauffer, thanks!
The wound was 8 cms deep?
Now I wonder what is the blade length of the huge kitchen taken from Raffaele's because it was shiny and looked clean?

Oh wait a sec!
It has a 17. 5 cm blade?!?

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/


No one is gonna stab a struggling woman,
using less than 1/2 of a knife blade,
again + again...

And if shoved all the way to the hilt,
which would have left some bruising on the victim,
the knife from Raff's would have mostly decapitated Mez.
Look at the photograph:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg


Hey Vixen,
do ya have any thoughts on this
and also the newly discussed bloody knife imprint that LondonJohn found and Dan O. personally compared?

The other thing to note with regard to the comparison of blade lengths is that a defence consultant noticed that the large wound was formed by multiple strikes of the knife that was used. So it's not just a question of wondering if a perpetrator would have plunged a knife less than halfway; it's a question of wondering how multiple strikes to the same depth could be expected unless they were to the hilt. So, this observation tends to prop up the argument that the eccymosis was caused by the hilt of the knife used. Therefore, the kitchen knife is ruled out as a possible murder weapon.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hey Vixen,
do ya have any thoughts on this
and also the newly discussed bloody knife imprint that LondonJohn found and Dan O. personally compared?

Ok, if I have this right, you are behind carbonjam72, Grinder, anglolawyer, sergei, and Kauffer on the runway.

Vixen's purpose here is not to answer questions, it is to flood the thread with his random factoid generator. It is to suggest doubt, without demonstrating the need for it, now that the Italian Supreme Court has closed the case against AK and SR by exonerating them.

And no one has even brought up the lamp!

 

[RWVBWL]

The other thing to note with regard to the comparison of blade lengths is that a defence consultant noticed that the large wound was formed by multiple strikes of the knife that was used. So it's not just a question of wondering if a perpetrator would have plunged a knife less than halfway; it's a question of wondering how multiple strikes to the same depth could be expected unless they were to the hilt. So, this observation tends to prop up the argument that the eccymosis was caused by the hilt of the knife used. Therefore, the kitchen knife is ruled out as a possible murder weapon.

Great post once again Kauffer!

For others interested in The Knife, read this detailed analysis,
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
I just skimmed it over for a few moments and this already caught my eye:

At the pre-trial in October 2008, the prosecution’s forensic expert, Patrizia Stefanoni, committed perjury testifying the Kercher DNA profile was “in the order of a few hundred picograms” and the analysis was quantified with Real Time PCR.


Didn't Dr. Stefanoni have to get special permission to drive down from Rome to collect evidence in this murder case? And now I read that she commits perjury when testifying in Court about some of the evidence she was testing?

I wonder when Dr. Stefanoni will be investigated by Italian Authorities?


As I'm a surfer, well I gotta go,
It's ON at Trestles, here in Southern California!
http://live.oakley.com/lowerspro/live/
RW

 

[Kauffer]

Ok, if I have this right, you are behind carbonjam72, Grinder, anglolawyer, sergei, and Kauffer on the runway.

Vixen's purpose here is not to answer questions, it is to flood the thread with his random factoid generator. It is to suggest doubt, without demonstrating the need for it, now that the Italian Supreme Court has closed the case against AK and SR by exonerating them.

And no one has even brought up the lamp!

Bleach, Bill! No one's brought that up - noise ticket? There's all kinds of stuff to come.

 

[Dan O.]

The big wound is 8cms deep and the blade too, if you accept that the eccymosis is caused by the hilt.

The blade on that knife in my hand is just over 8 cm long. Looking at it now, there appears to be blood stains on the handle but I think that is from fish.

 

[carbonjam72]

Did Raf/Gumbel have a court appearance yesterday? Did Mignini show up?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Did Raf/Gumbel have a court appearance yesterday? Did Mignini show up?

That case is going nowhere.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yeah, I know. It's funny, because I went, the day before the Hellmann acquittals, knowing nothing about the case, other than, for some reason or other, having mistakenly got it into my head, presumably from half listening to news reports, that Guede, Amanda and Raffaele were all firm friends, to beyond reasonable doubt within an hour and a half's research, with that research only taking so long because I held out for about 45 minutes and refused to accept that there really was no evidence of Amanda in Kercher's room.

I claim no extraordinary powers for myself. So, I simply cannot accept that an honest enquiry can be as reckless with the evidence as someone like Vixen, but not only Vixen. There is no rational basis on which to believe that Amanda and Raffaele could have committed this crime.

I joined in this odyssey in August 2011, reading a front page piece (below the fold) in an English language version of an Asian paper how the DNA evidence was collapsing - at what I was later to discover was the Hellmann court.

Prior to this I have only two fleeting memories that this case even existed - probably c. 2010 with a television piece on how DNA had convicted an American student in Italy, who'd killed while partying and the DNA had sealed the deal. I remember thinking, "DNA is DNA is DNA," and changed the channel hoping that whoever that young woman was, that she enjoyed the experience of prison.

The second fleeting memory was (I believe it was the ABC piece) on the crazy prosecutor who'd been into Satanic rites, etc. I went, "Huh," not as a question but more as a notation. After all, nutty or not, the prosecutor had DNA. That was the limit of my thought.

Reading that paper in August 2011 sent me on a trip around the internet - first was TJMK, and Kermit's powerpoints. Two of interest were of the break-in, and why it had to have been staged and was quite impossible to scale the wall under Filomena's; the other was the 150-questions Amanda Knox had to answer to prove her innocence.

(To my discredit, I had not written off TJMK at that point - even when laughing out loud that one of those questions Amanda had to answer to prove her innocence, was the phase of the moon on Nov 1, 2007.)

I watched the CNN coverage of the Hellmann verdict - fully expecting Hellmann to simply confirm the 2009 conviction. Ah, er, convictions! (I'm embarrassed to say that it was then and only then that I became fully aware that there was this guy named Raffaele Sollecito facing exactly the same music.) Hellmann of course acquitted saying the crime did not exist, or that they'd not done the main crime. Carbonjam72 has hated me ever since. (It didn't help that at the time I thought Hellmann had come to the Goldilocks decision on calunnia against Lumumba. But that's for later.)

I then joined IIP three days later with the intent to figure this out. How could the DNA have been so wrong? It was at IIP that the issue of the alleged "staging and clean-up" came to the fore - and I quickly reasoned that a clean-up simply could not have happened. The existence of a clean-up itself would have left forensics. So, I reasoned, no clean-up, no crime involving AK and/or RS. Period. It's that simple.

A buddy of mine who'd worked peripherally with the local court house took at look at Kermit's "the impossibility of the break-in through Filomena's window" powerpoint. The buddy said to me, "Whoever Kermit is, had better keep his day-job. He knows nothing about break-ins. On the basis of what Kermit has presented, that break-in is very doable."

Of course, 5 years later, British Channel 5 recreated the break-in through that window, which led to the conclusion that the PLE had charged and convicted someone with a crime (staging a break-in/clean-up) without even investigating it or presenting evidence.



If they could convict someone of a crime with no evidence, then just about anything is possible in Italy. And that's before running into "judicially generated evidence" like multiple attackers.

I claim no extraordinary powers for myself. So, I simply cannot accept that an honest enquiry can be as reckless with the evidence as someone like Vixen, but not only Vixen. There is no rational basis on which to believe that Amanda and Raffaele could have committed this crime.

I quit this in February 2012. The Hellmann court had, indeed, answered all the questions. In January 2012 I did myself a disservice by actually reading what Giuliano Mignini had said about the interrogation on Nov 5/6 2007.... a disservice because up until then I'd thought Hellmann had got the Goldilocks verdict - just right on all counts, including calunnia.

I'd not fully appreciated the role PLE/Mignini had played until reading his own words, quoted to CNN's Drew Griffin.

Not only is there no rational basis on which to believe that Amanda and Raffaele could have committed this crime, not only is there no evidence - real non-judicially-generated-evidence - that they were involved.....

There was actually a nutcase who brought together Napoleoni's, Ficarra's and Donnino's irrationalities into an osmotic whole; a whole designed to rescue his career, as he at the time was himself provisionally-convicted of abuse of office.

After my post-Feb 2012 hiatus, I don't remember what brought me back. It may have been reading John Follain's, "A Death in Italy," which sure looked like it was intended to convince the reader of AK's and RS's guilt, but succeeded in the reverse. This case exuded weirdness like that! It may have been the publishing (in English) of the Hellmann report - a report who no less than Peggy Ganong said, "looked like an FOA press release!" The conclusions of Hellmann and the FOA are only co-causal, though. If reasonable people look at this case, they will come to the same conclusion.

People like Vixen surfaced back then, too. Even with, then, Italy provisionally acquitting them, the guilters/haters still flooded the internet with - well, with what Vixen is doing now. An endless series of factoids from a random-factoid generator.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bleach, Bill! No one's brought that up - noise ticket? There's all kinds of stuff to come.

Sex-on-a-train, mixed-blood..... Vixen has enough material to go for 7 1/2 years before gullible people like me notice that he hadn't proved any of these things last time they came around the merry-go-round.....