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Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Vixen, how did Mez snub her? It was Holloween evening and Mez and her British girlfriends were drunk elsewhere flirting and bumming drinks from guys. Le Chic was a small, quiet place compared to the action the British girls were prowling for.

  • 20:06:51 Amanda texts Meredith — "I'm going to Le Chic for a bit, and afterwards who knows, maybe we'll see each other. Call me. What are you doing this evening? Do you want to meet? Do you have a costume?"

The only plans Amanda had made for that evening was to have coffee with Spiros. Three hours later she texts Meredith saying "maybe we'll see each other", "Do you want to meet?". It's not like they had plans to be together that evening or that Amanda actually expected Meredith to drop her plans just to meet her.

Interestingly, if Amanda had stayed with Spiros instead of meeting Raffaele and going home and have a quiet night with him, she would have ended up at the bar where Meredith was.
 
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Kaosium said:
I wish I could say that the knife was the most absurd evidence that the prosecution presented in this case. It's up there, but there is so much to choose from. It's a joke. And even more so when it applies to the charge against Amanda of transporting a weapon.

How does ANYONE beyond a reasonable doubt conclude that Amanda transported this knife from Raffaele'so apartment to and from the cottage? Is there testimony from anyone that Amanda transported this knife or any knife? Even if it was determined to be the murder weapon, (Which it wasn't) how does anyone determined who transported it?

Massei just postulated that Amanda felt she needed protection in her neighborhood and kept a kitchen knife (!?!) in her bag for several days. Thus the kitchen knife being in her bag was unrelated to any murderous impulses. He went from that being 'possible' to it becoming 'probable' without any evidence or argument supporting it.

(FYI: There is really no evidence that supports that this was the murder weapon. It had no blood on it, the knife didn't match the wounds on Meredith or the blood stain on her sheet.

Not only that, it's also damned curious that was the knife the polizia di stato plucked randomly from Raffaele's drawer when they took him back to his place to get his computers. Raffaele claims one of them said 'this will do' which gains greater credence when it's realized that by 'collecting' that one knife and no others at that time they acted like that one knife 'would do' for their purposes. What on earth were they doing taking that one knife and no other at that time? Why not wait and let the Polizia Scientifica collect it properly with everything else in a few days time?

A few days later Stefanoni will claim to have found Meredith's DNA on that knife, which she would later have to lie about and hid the particulars of, especially when it was revealed the knife tested negative for blood and even the prosecution's own forensic expert would say of the only two wounds capable of identifying or excluding a certain knife that one of them could not have been made by the kitchen knife and the other he understood why other experts would exclude it but he thought it barely possible if it was at the right angle.

Both wounds were the same depth (The knife went in the same length --within a millimeter) and both left hilt bruises meaning it was the same knife that made both wounds, or two with identical parameters.
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Hi Kao, Ac.

Re the hilighted part about choosing only one knife to test ...

I suspect it is standard procedure documented in the Perugian serious crimes investigation handbook:

Step 1: If a murder is suspected, collect one knife from somewhere,
Step 2: A few days later, test it for the murder victim's blood and/or DNA.
Step 3: If the test shows the knife was not the murder weapon, repeat steps 1 and 2.
(Note: if time does not permit repeating steps 1 & 2, then fudge some obscure forensic result, being sure to NOT release the EDFs, EVER!)

The same handbook no doubt has:
- When interrogating suspects, hide all recordings. Do not release, EVER. Never directly answer the question "were recordings made?".

And
- All running shoes with tread rings are identical, regardless of the number of rings.

And
- If a break in is suspected, it is not a break-in.

And
-If a staged break-in is suspected, do not investigate or document.

And
- If a sexual assault is suspected, don't test probable semen stains.

And
- If a sexual assault is suspected, consider the possibility it was actually an argument over poo.

And
- Drug addled tramps and hobos, make the best witnesses.

And
- The more suspects you have, the more suspicious sounding things you can claim. Double your suspects, double you claims. Triple your suspects .. you get the idea.

And
- Always be aware of the possibility of double body swaps, it is more common than you think.

And
- If in doubt, ask a psychic.

Cody
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Grinder would add: three compatibles equals a match. Also, Italian trials are a form of opera and an inflexible rule of the form is that nobody ever lies, except the accused who are by law both allowed and encouraged to do so.
 
The "extensive drug use" of Raf is recorded in Amanda's own fair hand, in her list of sex contacts, implying intravenous use, as of course, needles are a prime source of HIV spread.

This is one guilter fabrication I've never come across before. Either you made it up or it's something you've read that someone else did. The more generous assumption is that it's from someone else - which hardly says much for your claimed "scepticism".
It is also a fact - evidence captured in text messages - Amanda contacted Mez persistently re Halloween plans and Mez snubbed her.

Again, the kind of unsupported BS that we used to see, constantly, in reader comments when articles on the case were still current. That was when there was a good chance of a casual reader taking it seriously. It won't work on ISF, Vixen - people here are better informed.
Defence? Fair comment, m'Lud.

Is this supposed to be your response should you find yourself in court for defamation?
 
Does this sound familiar or just a coincidence? Wasn't Vixen just last week saying the length of the trials is an indicator of their involvement?

https://www.facebook.com/hirezlife/...758464806919/1115180171831409/?type=1&fref=nf

Nick van der Leek Freelance Photojournalist
no, Knox is very obviously completely innocent. that's why the trial lasted 8 years, because it was so obvious.

Nick van der Leek Freelance Photojournalist
Michael you're right, Knox’s fingerprints were only found on a glass in the kitchen.

Here he is on twitter asking that deranged old bat "Nell" for help writing the kill scene.

Nick van der Leek @HiRezLife Apr 29
@NellPMFdotNET IOW what conceivably happened that night which makes the most sense and integrates most of the info and testimony

Nick van der Leek @HiRezLife Apr 29
@NellPMFdotNET I'd like your involvement, firstly on the narrative and then to assist in developing a 're-enactment'

Nick van der Leek @HiRezLife Apr 29
@NellPMFdotNET I'm writing a book on the case and yours is one of a handful of excellent resources

Keep working at it Nick. ;)

Btw, if you'd bothered to check the fingerprint testimony, you'd know the cop said there was nothing unusual about finding only 1 fingerprint when he was asked by Massei.
 
Getting back to the knife print at marker "J", the easiest way to get this configuration of a print is if Rudy is sitting on the bed between the two markers. The knife and hand make only a brief contact with the bed probably as Rudy lowers himself down while the initial shock of what he's done hits him. There is a heavy coat of blood on the edge of Rudy's hand that faced the wound but it has not spread past the index finger at this point.

The shock will turn to anger and we see evidence that Rudy strikes the wall behind the bed leaving a high velocity impact splatter on the wall. After this, the knife gets dropped on the bed at the second marker. I'll need to work on how the finger painting on the wall fits in since there is only blood on the one finger at this juncture.
 
You Brits are also able to concoct the most inane puerile drivel and pass it off as comedy, alongside your claims to being one up on humour. Each case on its merits.....either side of the Atlantic.

Please don't bring nationality into it. I have no desire to be associated with Vixen or other PGP who happen to come from the same part of the world as me - and I'm sure Anglolawyer and London John don't either.
 
Please don't bring nationality into it. I have no desire to be associated with Vixen or other PGP who happen to come from the same part of the world as me - and I'm sure Anglolawyer and London John don't either.
I have repeatedly heard that Americans don't get irony, as stated by British people. But, language and humour originate in a deep structural space. It is irritating to see a young upstart like Vixen pull rank.
 
Vixen is learning quickly. Forget about British irony, she has discovered the advantages of being enigmatic and cryptic. She follows in the footsteps of platonov, rather than Machiavelli.

Here's a test: say Vixen! Are you still saying they called the carabinieri after the posties arrived?
 
The crime scene photo from Nov. 2: dsc_0172.jpg shows this in high resolution from directly overhead. The point gives the impression of being a knife. But if that is so, the missing connection between the point and the main splotch indicated it could be from rudy's hand holding the knife with only the point touching the sheet.. The best I can make this fit is if the knife is held loosely in the right hand and the blood is flowing off the index finger. The blood is pressed through the sheet where the finger makes contact and is thicker around the edges.

View attachment 33026

Given the thickness of this stain, it might be the first mark made after the murder. (The knife is only for demonstration and not to be an indication of the type of knife used)

I'm not sure what to make of the adjacent diluted drops. This could be sweat coming off Rudy's hand. If so, It would have a higher probability of containing Rudy's DNA than the red stuff that Stefie was focused on.


I see the impression as the downward-facing (from the POV of the photo) knife blade. Sort of like this freehand outline I've drawn:





Furthermore, this outline is entirely consistent in size and shape with the outline of the other imprint on the sheet (the one we're all more familiar with). It even contains the same type of block imprint that (in my opinion) is consistent with the hilt and handle of the knife.
 
Go ahead and do it, Vixen. Make it a premeditated crime. I have confidence in you. :p

It has all the hallmarks of premeditation.

Strozzi, are you telling us Rudy just happened to be passing and decided, hey I'm gonna chuck a 9lb rock at that shuttered window. Hey, I'm so dumb, who cares if I miss and it bounces back on to me or that the shutters turn out to be locked.
 
Vixen, it's been asserted that your claim about Amanda's sex contact list identifying Raffaele as an IV drug user is a guilter fabrication. I make no judgement on this, but I'd be interested to see a citation.
 
It has all the hallmarks of premeditation.

Strozzi, are you telling us Rudy just happened to be passing and decided, hey I'm gonna chuck a 9lb rock at that shuttered window. Hey, I'm so dumb, who cares if I miss and it bounces back on to me or that the shutters turn out to be locked.

Really? Your argument is that Guede wouldn't have thrown a rock from the driveway that was roughly at the level of the window because it might have bounced off the window and hit him, therefore AK/RS left RS's apartment and met up with Guede to kill Kercher? Have you figured out what role RS and AK played in the murder? Does your theory include how they managed either to not leave any footprints in the blood or they managed to selectively remove them while they were helping Guede kill Kercher? Do you have anything that resembles evidence to go along with this story you're dreaming up?

Up to now Vixen, I thought it was probable that you believed at least most of what you were posting. Is your last post the start of you revealing this has all been some sort of elaborate joke?
 
It has all the hallmarks of premeditation.

Strozzi, are you telling us Rudy just happened to be passing and decided, hey I'm gonna chuck a 9lb rock at that shuttered window. Hey, I'm so dumb, who cares if I miss and it bounces back on to me or that the shutters turn out to be locked.

What are the "hallmarks of premeditation" as far as the murder is concerned?

As far as the burglary was concerned, sure that was premeditated. Nobody thinks Guede just happened to be passing.

Who says the shutters were locked? Why do you think Guede didn't have the ability to test the the condition of the shutters?
 
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people who throw stones shouldn't testify in Italian courts

As far as the burglary was concerned, sure that was premeditated. Nobody thinks Guede just happened to be passing.

Who says the shutters were locked? Why do you think Guede didn't have the ability to test the the condition of the shutters?
Kauffer,

You make some good points. Even if the shutters had been closed (which is debatable), Guede could have climbed up and opened them or used a stick to open them from the ground. The area roughly where the cars were parked seems like a reasonable place to throw the rock. I believe that Sgt. Pasquali (spelling?) got the throwing of the rock correct. If, however, one believes that the window was broken after the murder, then we are back to Amanda-with-the-nerves-of-steel version of the crime. With a dead body in the apartment, the last thing I would do is break a window and draw attention to the flat.
 
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What are the "hallmarks of premeditation as far as the murder is concerned?

As far as the burglary was concerned, sure that was premeditated. Nobody thinks Guede just happened to be passing.

Who says the shutters were locked? Why do you think Guede didn't have the ability to test the the condition of the shutters?

The whole shutter thing borders on nonsense. How secure are inside shutters on the second floor of an old building? Between the possibilities that they aren't latched at all and the latch is easily defeated it's reasonable to assume that a burglar wouldn't be much worried about getting past the interior shutter.

Since Guede could have thrown the rock from the driveway and getting past the interior shutters would likely not have been a concern to him will Vixen rethink what is the most ridiculous argument in this thread since I've been following it?

ETA: The argument was not ridiculous just because the underlying premise of the argument, that Guede wouldn't have thrown the rock and that Guede would have been dissuaded from attempting to climb through the window because he thought he might not be able to get past the interior shutters, was false. The argument was ridiculous because to argue in any way that the actions of a burglar somehow require an appointment with AK and RS before he'd break into the apartment is nonsense at such a high level that it casts doubt on whether Vixen believes what Vixen posts. It would be complete nonsense even if Guede didn't have a history as a burglar committing similar kinds of crimes. But he did have such a history which adds one more layer of absurdity to this bizarre fantastical theory about the guilt of two innocent people.
 
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I see the impression as the downward-facing (from the POV of the photo) knife blade. Sort of like this freehand outline I've drawn:


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_40237554342f3c8639.jpg[/qimg]


Furthermore, this outline is entirely consistent in size and shape with the outline of the other imprint on the sheet (the one we're all more familiar with). It even contains the same type of block imprint that (in my opinion) is consistent with the hilt and handle of the knife.


Are you looking at the high resolution photograph or still trying to interpret the video? In the larger part of the stain the blood is very thick and even curling on the edges. The only desernable shape within that stain is the flattened zone where the blood is pressed into the sheet and showing the rounding of the knuckle.

This blood is so thick and not soaking into the sheet, it's like it has already started to clot. It's as if Rudy stood still in shock for 5 minutes watching Meredith die before sitting on the bed. Standing near the head of the bed with blood dripping from his hands and the left hand reaching out to steady himself on the wall could explain the blood evidence in that part of the room.
 
Here is an interesting juxtaposition of an argument between skeptics pulling in more evidence related to a single event which will either be tabled when both sides admit there is insufficient evidence to reach a conclusion or all sides are persuaded by the evidence and arguments to at least tentatively accept the same conclusion.

And along side is the rambling arguments of a "believer" jumping from one talking point to the next, hardly responding to the counter arguments and where evidence is even mentioned it is often misstated.
 
The whole shutter thing borders on nonsense. How secure are inside shutters on the second floor of an old building? Between the possibilities that they aren't latched at all and the latch is easily defeated it's reasonable to assume that a burglar wouldn't be much worried about getting past the interior shutter.

Since Guede could have thrown the rock from the driveway and getting past the interior shutters would likely not have been a concern to him will Vixen rethink what is the most ridiculous argument in this thread since I've been following it?

The interior shutters were never going to be a problem.
 
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